Perhaps I was not clear enough in what I meant. I was referring to indirect effects that have to be targetted.
The 'note' refers to indirect effects (e.g. setting fire to some straw or other fuel not in contact with the maga) which would require a targetting roll. If you wanted to ignite a maga's clothes or hair - directly - with a creo ignem spell - then the heat and flames would have to penetrate Parma to affect her.
Igniting the air around a magus would have to be ruled on by the troupe when someone wanted to develop that spell. I would suggest that, because air doesn't typically sustain a fire without a fuel source, that it remains magical (thus must resist parma).
Actually, the way I've set out this aspect of the rules isn't much different to AM5 canon.
No, have no fear, I am not going to bring up any of my notions again -- opinions have already been voiced on that topic. But still, as I have seen in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and now 5th editions, this topic will always be open to frustration, interpretation, and confusion.
Part of the problem is determining where Real World (r) physics is accepted, as opposed to Medieval Paradigm (r) physics. That and a few basic "givens".
Badger 101, you are doing a fine job of narrowing the problem here. I gleefully salute your efforts!
I certainly didn't get that ... ok, I mentioned earlier that we all have to be elliptical at times in these discussions.
I don't know of any ignited air, but I guess that also air heated up by a magical fire - that's the stuff that makes bushfires jump streams if the wind is right - would then have to be considered 'magical'.
Yes, indeed. Drawing the consequences from 'suppressive' Parma working at the very limits of body and clothes only, you are getting closer and closer back to 'blocking' Parma ...
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I see what you mean - yes, the heat from a magical fire (therefore the hot air) would be magical, thus resistable.
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hmm ... that's got me thinking!
I'm not sure I agree. I think it's still a suppressive parma (though indirect magics are certainly handled more or less like AM5 canon). By reducing the parma to a point boundary that follows the surface - it merely avoids some of the possibly bizarre behaviour (and exploits) that are often attributed to suppressive models of parma.
Cheers, Angus. This model is only offered here as one alternative (out of probably infinite possible conceptions). It allows my troupe to maintain the 'logic' of our previous games, though fans of blocking parma will undoubtably cope or find solutions for the inevitable issues that arise with that model.
If other players find the model useful - or at least interesting - then I'm glad to have contributed to the 'eternal' debate
Yeah, I pretty much agree with your approach. As you pointed out, I treat Muto differently.
In my eyes, Parma doesn't suppress the magic itself, it suppresses the effects the magic would have on you, and only those. But that doesn't mean it restores those properties the object had in its original form.
It is a ReVi breakthrough (q.v. Aegis of the Hearth -- no Perdo requisite) that effectively acts as a Pe Whatever on those properties that have been magically affected.
But since it doesn't actually suppress the spell itself, the properties of the target that have been overriden by the magic are not restored (though you may wish to make a distinction between enhanced and overriden): the not-pebble doesn't act as a boulder, the not-milk isn't poisonous.
Edit -- I also don't agree with Creo producing mundane objects, unless they are made permanent. Hitting a magus with a Sun-duration sword will have no effect unless the Creo effect penetrates.
I think a lot of people might agree with you - though I wanted to avoid a suppressive Parma being able to allow people to walk through magical walls, or put their hands through magical animals, etc.
Also - if you read my design brief at the start - it's one of the features (of our troupe's AM3 games) that such basic Creo'd objects aren't expected to penetrate parma.
How does your conceptulisation handle created objects then - does it block them? Or act as a Pe (Whatever) to simply negate any damage caused?
The sword will be blocked: it may not be affecting the magus, but the magus is still affecting it. The fact that the magus has magic resistance doesn't suddenly enable the sword to go through it.
Yeah, I know, it sounds a bit far-fetched, but that's how you can keep things consistent without having magi walk through walls.
