Something that corresponds to 99.9% of the population. The other 0.1 are divided between the ones that go to heraven and the ones that we have no idea where they go. The former of those 0.1 are in the minority for sure.
Cheers,
Xavi
I may not use all of them in the same saga, but by all means all ancient magic secrets are out there in the setting, hidden in remore corners, just like I may not use all possible mystery cults, but all Mystery Virtues do exist in the setting. I don't see the point of downgrading the richness of the setting.
It is quite evident that Bonisagus's system, while very good and a masterpiece, isn't but the pale shadow of what it could be if brought to the extreme development (i.e. if all mysteries and ancient secrets were integrated). I relish the fact that the Mysteries and Ancient Magic creates some good blueprints and guidleines for advancing Hermetic magic that talented and creative characters may follow if players care that direction for developing the saga, it gives the setting some serious dynamic potential, the Limits of magic being flaws of the theory instead of cosmic laws, it gives research something to go instead of endlessly churning out minor variants of the same old spells.
The most powerful changes break Magical Resistance, the Limit of Arcane Connection, the Limit of Vis, and the Limit of Creation. They aren't for all troupes, but provided that's what you wish for, you can implement it and still tell quite playable stories. The main consequence is that Hermetic mages get much more independent from mundane sources and much more powerful vs. mundanes (ahh, I love the smell of burning churches in the morning 8)). The main checks to their power become the Divine, other mages, and supernatural creatures, even more so than in the basic setting.
It gets more easy for Covenants to establish themselves as fully independent feudal lords with very little to fear from nobles and peasants.
Could you explain that? I am quite interested in it, now that we have to rethink our covenant anew on Saturday.
About whatr I said, I think I didn't myself clear. It is OK for all those to exist in the setting. I simply tend to ignore large parts of the information because my players will never come to cross them in their paths. One or 2 mystery cults? Sure. One non-hermetic tradition of magic. Granted. 10-20 of the above? No way. it simply loads players with too many rules and information and messes up with the natural flow of the saga. At least this is what we have encountered in our previous sagas. In one of them I just made that exact mistake and deeply regreted it afterwards. The saga lacked consistency having too many "cool trinkets" mixed with the flow of the main story arc (the conquest of Ireland by the normans). The saga lost focus and rapidly became a hodge podge of unconected items. We didn't like that, and I have to take full responsibility for it. 
If that is not your case, my deepest admiration. Go ahead with it 
Cheers,
Xavi
The coolest story and one of the best ideas for a "Flaw" are in City and Guild: the quest for our new fearie-merchant-companion to find a proper husband for his 20 daughters. There wasnt any other evening in the last 2 years that was so much fun, was so cool, so interesting, had so much good and medivial charplay than the last one... you dont need any high power ideas or settings for having fun: a good idea (who was the writer who had this idea?) is the pure p0wnage! 
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Jane Austen, originally.
I stole it from "Pride and Prejudice".
I would, gladly, but first let me know precisely what you are interested in. I get that you don't have the book, yet, and wish to know how possible breakthroughs from AnM can impact Covenant management and the standing of the Order vs. the mundanes. Well, this is a rather well-covered topic, since in addition to the native creative brilliance of every gamer reader (which remains the strongest weapon 
) the book sports compact nice blurbs that describe possible consequences on the setting for every advancement (thanks to authors and David for the idea, it was really neat). Very, very neat, I wish there had been the space to do it for Mysteries, too. Is this what you wish to know ?
Hmm, I have the strongest impression that we are saying and doing the same thing, in different words. Of course, I also allow all the canon stuff to exist in the setting... someplace off-camera. But only the bits that are relevant to the characters or the story get a place in the story. It's a large library: all those books, exist, stored splace. But only the ones you get to read are important to you. Of course, if players are interested to use some rule or settin bit for a character or show up in the story, I would feel dutybound to find a way to weave them in the story, within reasonable limits of course. So the latest book offers nine different extinct non-Hermetic "high magic" mystical lores ? Fine, their relics exist, collecting dust, in remote or hidden and forgotten corners of the world, and will get coverage only if the troupe gets interested in searching them. No one, and we'll will focus on political manipulation and setting up a merchant empire ? Fine. Only one, and then we'll focus on the consequences ? Fine. Almost all of them ? Fine, the saga will focus on being the wizard-archeologists of Mythic Europe, but it's nice with me. As concerns mysteries, all and every Mystery Virtue that is the books has been Initiated by some mage somewhere, and any PC can get them, provided they ask the right people, or are successful with researching script. There is no such thing as all canon mystery cults, since 5th ed. canon hasn't really a thing like an adequate array of canon cults, the philosophy of the book is to provide the mystical lore, and let the troupe develop customized cults for their saga. As a very rough guide, I can tell that as a SG I would assume that in the setting, a PC typically might have the theoretical choice of getting any Mystery Virtue from at least two different possible cults. Tracking them down, however, may be a different thing. After all cults may be very small and secretive (all that it takes to create one is a mystagogue with a bunch of scripts, really), so there's no reason not to assume that the Order may somehow honeycombed with cults. But they stay off-camera, unless they become relevant to the character ad the story.
Well, the two books cover rather similar topics, so this is only natural. If we were debating the guild section of C&G, or resource managements for Covenants, we'd say different things.
Let's say that I relish both. I enjoy the sight while I go on the path, but I keep the destination in mind. I like the stories just like you, the power just allows to do bigger and noisier stories, it's that I have probably much more of a taste for the epic, the otherworldly, the high fantastical, and the larger-than-life. My tastes in fiction and RP are rather Hollywood blockbuster, little and weak tend to bore me. Stories can surely start on the apparently trivial detail and focus on the mundane, not every story can nor should involve earth-shattering magical secrets, political manipulation and mercantile intrigue can surely bless with as much fun and interest, but characters and stories must ultimately be larger-than-life.
If the saga is focused on a wholly different directio (say setting up a mechant empire or reconciling the Church with the Order, or briging back House Diedne), sure, you might not even use anything from this book. However, if the troupe is iterested in doing the Indiana Jones thing, and focuses on being Seeker, sure, I would deem using only one secret wasteful. I do not think multiple use would cheapen wonder (did Bonisagus diminished the wonder of magic because he created a generalist magic system instead of doing the specialist thing like all others before ?), about antiquity I do not care at all, it's completely outisde my radar, I do not rate the secrets according to their age, rune magic is more recent than automata and interests me more.
If you reread my posts, you will notice that my enthusiasm about Hermetic breaktorughs comes just from that, the potential for change, and change means fuel for good stories, the kind I appreciate the most. Empowerment is very fine, I relish to play powerful characters, vicarious empowerment is an essentuial element of my fun, I like characters that can lord it over the unwashed masses and only find real challenge from their elite peers and luminaries of different stripes, but it's not the be-all. You can get similar levels of raw power just from maximizing your Arts, 5th ed. is balanced fine in that way, no road to power is better than any one else, either Arts, spells, enchanted devices, Virtues, Mysteries, ancient secrets, or anyting else. It's just that we are speaking about a book of ancient magical secrets now, so I wax poetic about it.
I might easily answer because I like to play an Hermetic that changes himself and the face of Mythic Europe. That's not all what I want to do with the game and the setting, by any means. But it answers your objection. I might also add that there are aspects of the setting that I passionately dislike because they run counter to my own idelogical prejudices (which I won't leave out of the gaming table b/c it would seriously spoil my fun), so I feel more interested in aspects that allow the setting, in such aspects, to be either successfully defied, sidestepped, or changed, than cherished and respected.
Well answered. Thank you very much. As you rightfully assumed I do not have the book yet. I live far away from my store 8because of time contraints, not physical location) so i have neither this one nor city & guild. A pitty. But this is something I plan to correct ASAP. 
Cheers,
Xavi
Never mind. Spoiling is a pleasure and a duty, given how much of a pest I made of myself, when I hadn't got a coveted book yet. 
Please tell me if there's something you wish to be spoiled in greater detail.
My heart bleeds for you.
This overworked professional's heart shudders at the mention of time constraints. Have you considered an arrangement with your store to have them ship you at least the stuff you want ASAP ? Getting stuff on your doorstep is so nice a timesaver. Far from me to suggest people giving up the FGLS, but for Europe, a truly excellent on-line source is leisuregames.com.
Yesterday I raided my local store and got a copy of C&G, Ancient Magic and the Mysteries. ROP:I and HoH:MC were not available, so I couldn't get them. Yesterday night I had my first perusing through mysteries and ancient magic. I reserve C&G for the near future.
TMRE looks like an updated version of the already excellent 4th edition book. At least for the setting and flavor. There are some changes that I have detected, with more information for players that was not there in the previous version. I like it. The number crunching will be analyzed once I finish C&G. So it will take a while. I have saved it for further analysis.
Ancient Magic looks awesome. Not that I would use much of it (as I think the authors intend), but it is full of interesting information. And I expect to draw loads of story hooks from there! 
I liked the "consequences of this magic" bit that I detected in some of the chapters. I suppose it is there for all the chapters. Once I read the whole book I will give as more thoroughly overview, but right now I am grinning about my latest adquisitions. 
Of course my wallet is yelling at me, but I keep her muffled.
Cheers,
Xavi
Rune Magic (Finally! 
)
We have been waiting for this for a while....
Now the Questions....
Can you gain more than one Insight if an item that is investigated has more than one power?
If you take all the penalties for omissions, does the rune still maintain an Arcane Connection to the creator?
Can you reduce the AC with normal Perdo Vim spells that reduce AC's?
Gratz! And enjoy!
The way I read the section on page 8 I'd presumably say no. On the other hand if you want a faster pace of the Insight in your saga this would be an obvious thing to allow.
If it's integrated...why not? As fer the rest I dont have the book handy 
Really? Well, I'm glad to have been able to accommodate you.
Well, if you can, I'd imagine you would need to make two rolls. That seems fine to me.
Yes. The magic is still an AC to the rune magus, even if there are no visible signs.
I'd say no. It's like Opening the Intangible Tunnel, and you can't reduce that as an AC, right? As long as the rune remains active, it should be a connection to the rune magus. That's why rune wizards typically broke their rune spells after they were done with them.
The rules only allow one Insight per item, artifact, relic, etc.
The idea is that lab rats get big bonuses to research in exchange for actually leaving the lab and doing things. If you only have to go on one adventure to do your research, lab rats are going to do it that way. The rules are designed to encourage exploration and discovery. If you don't have a problem getting the rats out of their labs in your saga, you should feel free to change the rule.
One slight exception. For the self-aware Mechanica of Heron, Anima, which have multiple powers allow multiple insight. But as far as I know, there's only a few in existence.
I might allow a very complex item to be useful for several instances of inspiration. But such a prize is going to be the fruit of many sessions of adventure.
Jeff - who is still sorry about Hypatia
And I felt very sorry for the Nightingale. Poor thing. 
Yes - so the title might lead you to believe... it is the Revised Edition.
I'm glad you like it!
We'd like to think we took the best ideas from TM4e and rewrote them from scratch to match the style of 5e; and rewrote the background material to pull it back from 15thC Mysticism to C13.
We also added the "Build Your Own Cult" material, to stress the idea that there's no difference between player characters & non-player characters - it is the power of the character that determines what they can do.
Well, that kind of limits its usefulness for Verditius (as the book relates) or anyone else...about the only thing you would ever use it for is your Tailisman...
Not sure about reducing In.Tun. That spell requires an AC...the book is stating that it provides a free Int tun to the creator...
(They probably broke them because they didn't have any way of reducing the AC....?????)
Why provide all the penalties for not including your name (etc)? Isn't that kind of like having rules for casting spells without audio or gestural actions, but not allowing it?????
Or else he'd put it on some other very special item, one that he doesn't let anyone else use. Not a bad idea, considering how valuable it would be.
But what you're asking about is a little odd: the effect cast by the item has to have D:Rune and T:Inscription, and it's this inscription that gets an Arcane Connection back to the caster. If the caster is an item, then it means there's an intangible tunnel between the runes and the item, not to the magus. So, you could make a magic item that can cast, say, a healing spell on a room that you have marked with runes, and the spell would last until the runes were brushed away.
Also, Verditius magi who have been initiated into Elder Verditius Runes get a substantial advantage from this discovery, one that doesn't include any of the drawbacks of Hermetic Rune Magic.
I'm having difficulty understanding you here, but my intention was that the connection between the runes and the caster can't be removed as long as the effect is active, because the runes get their power from the caster. The Anglo-Saxon rune wizards knew this, and so they rarely let their rune spells out of their control, instead casting them on wooden staves they could break or drawing them into the ground so they could erase them before moving on.
Again, I'm not sure what you mean, so please clarify if I don't answer your question. The penalties are exactly like words and gestures for magi; you always need the runes for the Arts used in the rune spell, but you can cast it without writing your name or the description of the effect. If you do, it's like casting a Hermetic spell without words and gestures.