And I did for Caine -the third one from the left that is- poor creature 
It could have been worse: God could have made him a vampire! 
Jeff
Bah! Where did you get that silly idea??? 
And then his 7 shades are in fact symbols of the tribes of his decedents? 
Erik
DOH!
I saw the section about getting a bonus, but I didn't see anything like what you are saying here...
Can you explain...
Ahhh! Good point. I was thinking that the Runes on the item would be an AC to the creator...not the item.
Interesting.
Which was (sort of) my point. What good is all this if a Verditius can't make an item and sell it??? (Explaination from above might clear that up)
The second paragraph of Enchantment Runes on page 139 should tell you everything. The Verditius can basically double both of his Arts for any invested effect, plus add his score in Rune Magic as a kind of Shape and Material bonus.
Well, I admit the rules are unclear on this point. However, when responding to you earlier, I forgot that in the first part of the Enchantment Runes box on page 139, it does say that the magus has to inscribe the runes on the invested item, just like he was casting a spell on that item. So presumably effects that target something other than the device itself require either an Arcane Connection to the target or require that the target is touching the device when the effect is enchanted, and the magus is considered to be the caster for the purposes of the intangible tunnel.
Rune Magic has a hefty drawback because it can have a permanent duration and ignore penetration in many circumstances, and my instinct is that this drawback is something that shouldn't be easily overcome. I think it's still pretty darn powerful, though, certainly something that would dramatically affect the power of Hermetic magic in the setting.
A Verditius who understand the mystery of the Verditius Elder Runes can still use the discovery in his devices without creating a permanent connection to them. Otherwise, the rune magic is just too personal for him to be able to use it on merchandise-- it's like he's binding part of his Gift to the device. His talisman, though, sounds like a perfect application.
Okay..I knew that...I thought there was something in the Rune Magic section that I missed or misinterpreted.... 
Okay, I'm now... Specifically:
Are you saying that you can't put "PoF" (Rune Magic) in an item?
I agree..but if you can only put it in a Talisman, it makes it a LOT of work to make that GONZO item...and just that ONE item. I certainly see the applications for the type of Magic...but the book kind of says that it would be 'great' for Verditius...thats kind of misleading (sorry). Its great for the Verditius to make his talisman...but any other item seems to be more risk than its worth( 
)...After all..if someone gets your Talisman, you're pretty much Perdo'd anyway...so it really doesn't matter how he melts you into a puddle on the floor... 
Oh! The Elder runes are missing three Runes...Muto, Imaginem, and Terram (Serf's Parma)...Does the Rune Magic fill in this gap in anyway? Does it help discover them?
Thanks...
Urien
If you know Rune Magic, you do know the missing Elder Runes, and then some. I assume it would help a Verditius who wanted to integrate them with Elder Runes for use by the rest of the House. That looks like a reasonable byproduct of integrating Rune Magic with Hermetic Magic in the first place.
That, would make it all so, so
Apprentice! Apprentice! Get my stuff together! I am going down to get the grogs...We leave in the morning!
Now where did I put my boots???
Um, Apprentice, where's the door?
Well, you can, but the effect has to use D:Rune and T:Inscription, and these runes have to be written on the item. So you could make a magical pilum that ignites with non-magical flame, but it wouldn't magically speed off to hit a target like the Hermetic spell. You'd have to throw it yourself.
It is possible to make a rune spell target something other than the thing inscribed with the runes, but you need an Arcane Connection to that target when you cast it, and this is one of those cases where the spell has to penetrate Magic Resistance. You'd probably be better off investing the Hermetic version of the spell instead.
Well, it really depends what you want to do with the item. Say you made a cloth that when spread on a table created a feast large enough to feed ten men. Or perhaps you want a ring that heals the wearer of any wounds he sustains while wearing it. Hermetic magic can do these things, but temporarily; the food is not nourishing and the wounds reopen. Rune Magic can do these things permanently, for as long as the rune is undamaged. Both of these effects are extremely powerful in the setting, and an item that did this would be a fabled masterpiece. Likely the Verditius who made them would prefer to keep these wonders to himself, and the intangible tunnel connection reinforces that. But there's no reason he couldn't wear the ring or carry the cloth with him when he travels, or lend them out to people he really trusts.
Yes, you always know an elder rune that would apply to any Hermetic Art.
You're welcome.
You can put runes on a fresh corpse and transform it into a permanent Giant Firebreathing Zombie of Doom... that will fall apart if someone damages the magic inscription.
Pretty sweet.
ROTFLMAO!
Just make sure its a zombie of your specially bred fertility cult giant-werewolf. On the other hand, I think you've just created the world's cheapest golem.
Jeff
And the nice thing about it is that it's just the kind of things you might find in some forgotten tomb. Though good luck investigating those runes.
I think hstmskeml's "ÑÃÀÌÕÎÑÒÈÃÃ" poll is a great example of how a corpse animated with Rune Magic would talk.
How much breakthrough points, and what kind of breakthrough , do you think it would be necessary to completely do away with vis requirements to Creo magics for healing people and animals, and repair/mend broken stuff, only ? Taking the "no vis for ritual spells" or the "enchanting ritual spells in devices" Hyperborean breakthroughs, or the Rune Magic breakthrough, and restricting it to healing and mending spells only. I may be still somewhat hesitant to implement the full versions of such radical breakthroughs and totally do away with the Limit of Creation, but I defintely want to seize the opportunity to do away with vis for healing once for all.
Ancient Magic breakthroughs I'd like to introduce in play as soon as the opportunity arises:
No vis requirement for healing
Event Duration
Fertility ritual magic
Coordinates
Erik:
So Rune spells only affect things at range touch or AC...okay I can work with that....
Question: You had said that having Elder runes, the Elder rune bonuses apply...Does that mean that when you cast a rune spell (and you know Elder Runes) that you get to double your Form and Tech????
Wanderer: probably around 60 points...I would guess...
No, not when casting spells, but you can double them when making a magic item, and if you are making a device that casts a Rune Magic spell, you can take advantage of both the Mystery and the discovery.
Isn't it too much ? I mean, the whole versions of the relevant Creo Breakthroughs (Hyperborean Vis-less Permanent Magic, Hyperborean Ritual Effect Enchantment, and Rune Magic) cost 75, 65, and 45 b.p., respectively (true, fully integrating Rune magic with no Virtue would be 90 b.p.). And face it, vis-less healing is not the most radical or direct violation of the Limit of Creation (as in it only impinges indirectly on the Limit, it is highly debatable whether permanent healing is true "creation" in the spirit of the Limit), nor the most unbalancing violation of the limit (creating all kinds of permanent stuff from thin air is).
60 too much...hmmm
Well, by eliminating the Vis, you are eliminating the Ritual part (?). This would make the spell a momentary spell that takes a round...
So you lose the Vis requirement and remove the extended casting time (what, an hour minimum?)
That is a really big difference....
Okay, fair enough...but still
Is there a rule that states this?
Do you have Mystery Cults? Page 127 tells the effects of using the runes, and the sidebar on page 139 of Ancient Magic explains how Rune Magic combines with crafting items and the Elder Runes. It says you can make devices that use Rune Magic, and it says you can use the runes with the Elder Runes Mystery.