In Rhuddlan Castle, Wales, in 1241, the garrison was 10 knights and 23 other soldiers.
In the middle 12th century, an ordinary garrison for Oswestry Castle in Shropshire, England, was 5 total fighting men. (1 knight, 2 porters, and 2 watchmen). More soldiers would be called up as needed, for a limited time.
In the late 12th century, an ordinary garrison for Oswestry Castle was 25 total fighting men.
Of course we're (a) pretty wealthy; and (b) in Mythic Europe. So higher numbers may be warranted.
Not handwaved. Just not worried about affording it. I am working on a project to account everything. Updated boons & hooks, vis sources, residents, everything.
And I figure our annual income currently stands at around 1800 a year.
Though Carmen is a penny pincher and I am playing with the numbers still.
What we have had for the past several years is about sixty, half of whom are Gold Griffons. That required 18 Teamsters & Servants as it was, fora total of 78.
My concern is not cost, it is space. It breaks my imagination for half the population of Arans to dwell in the keep. It is fine to have most of them working for us though. The money we save on provisions is instead spent as wages.
Remember, the economics around here are not feudal.
So I ask the troupe for input. How many guards do we need to protect both our keep and our various Sa Dragonera properties? How many body guards per magus? What do we need for expeditions? Whatever number that adds up to, add 10% for Staff & Specialists, then on top add 30% for Servants and Teamsters.
Marko, unfortunately I think you may have to look at each magus on an individual basis, vice a standard number.
For example, Acutus has no staff at his quarter, and has no interest in a bodyguard/shield grog. Solomon on the other hand, has at least one personal servant working in his sanctum (I still need to write her up as a grog) as well as a shield grog, and may want another bodyguard and whatever other attendant staff he is "authorized".
It seems reasonable to assume that each magus will have one principle bodyguard/footman. To restrict access to their sanctum, to accompany them on their travels, and keep the riff-raff off, etc. Perhaps a second footman / more general servant, but I'd hesitate to call such a person an actual 'bodyguard' - even if they can handle themselves against most nosy folk, and discourage people from doing silly things. If more than that is required (say, for a major expedition), I'd draw on a general pool of men.
Actually guarding Andorra won't require too many people. You'll want one or two for the main gate. And a few more for the walls or elsewhere within the covenant. Mirror this set-up for our other sites. Just a smattering of guys to restrict access, check who comes and goes, and keep the peace if necessary.
This is going to come up to a few dozen men, tops. Albeit about half of them are going to answer personally to one of our resident mages.
Now, here's where things get interesting. Standing armies are expensive. So the nobles of the time didn't keep them. Likewise for standing garrisons beyond a necessary minimum. But there was always the expectation that if you needed more men, you could get more men. You'd call on your vassal knights, who'd call on theirs, who'd raise their levy. You could pull together an army if you needed an army!
We don't really have that capacity at Andorra. We don't own a dozen manors spread across the surrounding countryside. So if we need men, we can't just conjure them out of thin air (...wait, poor choice of words) - they'll have to come from somewhere. So either we have a larger garrison than we ostensibly need, or we hire some professional mercenaries to make up the slack when we need more slack.
But that sounds fine to me: a few dozen 'actual' guards stationed across our holdings - with the majority of those guards being personal enforcers for the mages in residence, and much more than that being hired professionals. Or maybe even drummed up from the nearby villages with the promise of coin if you need just a bunch of extra guys on-hand for whatever.
This "general pool" you speak of, that is what the guard is supposed to be. The general pool that any magus can draw from. As for Acutus, even if he has no bodyguards, he may want to draw a squad of marines to deal with some pirates at some random point or some such. They need to be trained and available and not busy watching the gate or something.
I am revising numbers though and aiming lower.
Keep in mind that we already have sixty. I don't want to go lower. That sixty number was what we had when there were half as many magi and no Sa Dragonera properties.
Also keep in mind that this is has always been a military covenant and is responsible for guarding serious wealth. Between our stocks and the Mercere pawnbrokers, there has to be several queens of vis in this one location. There is also a major portal link up and regular Hermetic traffic.
As for locals, those that can fight are already in the guard I imagine. I further imagine that most of our covenfolk come from the village and many commute back and forth.
Anyway, if we ever do need more troops, I suppose we can always hire more mercenaries from Barcelona or get grogs on loan from Doisettep. We are portal linked with both.
How about this...
Twenty Gold Griffon Almogavars
Twenty Red Drake Grogs
Ten Blue Marid elite marines
Ten for Staff & Warrent Officers
That totals 70 (+21), compared to the 60 (+18) we have, Roberto has reduced his request to a small increase of only 10 (+3). Considering that we have twice as many magi and several many more properties, this is not unreasonable.
Also, there is one thing berhaps I am seeing in reverse. Some have suggested pressing such and so into service if we need soldiers. I plan to use the soldiers for all that stuff. Nodrinking and playing cards while stationed on garrison. NO! Paint the fence, clean the yard run these errands, deliver this message, etc.
Or you could say I want to press them into service ahead of time. Every able bodied male (and capable female thatdesires) should recieve some minimal martial training.
Also, since a lot will consist of moving characters around in category, such as incorporating any loose shield grogs, there may not be any increase in overall net population. IfI work it right, it may even go down.
For example, I want to recruit Warrent Officers (Specialists) from existing characters only.
In the 4th Crusade Byzantium, a city of 500,000 people, fielded an army of 8,500, or about 1.7% of its population. The idea that the castle for Arans needs a standing army of 20% its population is a bit far fetched.
Borrowing marines to take out pirates isn't necessary forces, those are luxury forces. In 1793 the entire Militia of Andorra (not one castle) was 500 men. There is no way Arans should be supporting 1/10 of that. That would be like a militia group in Arkansas today with 140,000 members.
I see what you are doing :mrgreen:
But the comparisons do not fit. This is not an army or militia. It does not support the defense of the principality. It is a private security force.
But I see your point.
We should roll play this. Roberto is going to argue for the larger force of 80. Carmen wants to cut costs and focus on magical defenses.
We can do with half that number. A dozen for security, a dozen body guards, a half dozen of your "Blue Marines", a Captain, plus the required service staff.
"I need someone on me day and night," Guiverna says with a saucy grin.
"In all honesty, I only need an armed escort when I leave my regio. I do tend to spend a fair bit of time near the docks when the mood strikes me, and as long as my guard knows how to not be too intrusive, I'm fine."
I have meditated on it, and came up with these revised numbers for Roberto's request
8 Command (Captain, Administrative Lieutenant, Staff Sergeant, two Staff Corporals, three Warrent Officers)
12 Griffons (Commander, Sergeant, two Corporals, eight Private Soldiers)
23 Drakes (two Lieutenants, two Sergeants, three Corporals, sixteen Grogs)
7 Marids (two Lieutenants, two Sergeants, three Corporals)
Sub-Total: 50 (7 O, 3 WO, 16 NCO, 24 P/G)
plus 10 Servants, 25 Laborers, no Teamsters, equals 85
or 10 Servants and 5 Teamsters equals 65
"I think we can too. If all we want to do is ensure Andorra is secure. Do we want more than that? Do we need more than that? Do I need a four strong entourage to guard me - plus associated baggage - when I leave Andorra for lands unknown?"
Frederika steepled her fingers.
"A better question might be what are we going to silver on if not fighting men? Expanding the covenant, buying vis, something else entirely? If there's nothing else, I can't imagine more security as being a bad thing."
"I think Roberto's revised numbers are supportable," Lucas replies with a nod. "Provided the expenses for such a force are within our budget. We have a large castle to defend and a chapter house that's spread out across a large part of the Balearic Islands; we have fourteen magi who each need a shield grog; we are in a situation in which it is not easy for us to call up reserves; and we have proven our need for an occasional strike force with our foray into the City of Brass. What's more, because of our presence in both Andorra and the Balearic Islands, I think it wise that we have a garrison large enough that we can send a suitable force to the Balearics and still have a reasonable number of soldiers remaining to defend Arans,"
"I also fully support Roberto's proposal to provide for an auxiliary militia force by giving arms training to some of the non-combatants at the castle. They'll never be the fighting force that a cadre of professional soldiers will. But if we could field even twenty competent crossbowmen to supplement the garrison in times of trouble, that seems like a reasonable expenditure of effort. To set a good example, I'm instructing my manservant to start training himself with the crossbow."
From what Roberto has said, I assume that the shield grogs would be counted as members of the Drakes. That already drops their number to 9 regulars and 14 shield grogs.
Roberto nods iin agreement. [color=red]And it heeps people emmployed. That is good for the economy of Arans. Futher, I say our needs are abnormal. We have twice thenumber of magi as normal, we are an Autumn covenant that needs to maintain prestiege, we have a keepand properties scattered on four different islands, ogres and drakes on one side and hedge wizard pirates on the other, we go on missions to places like the City of Brass, we have the responsability to protect major assets of the Order, and this covenant has suffered major attacks which it barely survived.
Sodales, we have a choice. We can be an asset or a target. We can be a major strong hold of the Order, a resource in a time of crisis. But if we are not well secured and guarded, we are inviting the enemies of the Order to sweep on in and sieze resources to use against us.
The only way to insure tranquility is to be prepared for conflict and crisis.
color me confused here again, but we have 1200/yr based on 2 standard and 1 legendary source of income, described as Vinyards, Agriculture, Rents, Silver Mining, Investments & Banking, which is 5 things, in addition to which banking and finance weren't really a thing outside of Italy unless you are a Templar or Jewish, and I don't think the covenant is either...also which source of income is legendary?
It's my understanding that the Jewish and Templar bankers were the big banking fixtures of the 12th century. Well into the 13th century, we should be seeing an explosion in bankers (many constructing convenient ways around the usury prohibition) - particularly in Italy. We're not quite at the rampant banking of the 14th century, but here in the 13th there's definitely a lot of change going on.
In Italy, yes, not so much in Spain or France, certainly not in the hinterlands of Arans. Are we using the Redcap network for subtle forms of usury? (Rilcheauz would certainly approve!)
To be honest, with the way the Redcap network is set-up, the entire Order of Hermes can do what the Templars did. Except with the ability to move currency instantly.
Given how the previous guard was felled, I've done my best to diminish the need on mundane soldiers, and I'm not finished.
But these only go so far. Unless and until I can tie all our physical defenses to bound ghosts or spirits, and maybe even then, we'll need mundane soldiers, if only to discern treats that might escape the cruder senses of my servants, or to adapt to a new threat.
So, while I think we don't need as much soldiers as our predecessors, we still very much need them. I've been here before. She frowns.
And the current situation, where we pay mercenary companies, costs us way too much anyway ^^
I thus support Roberto's attempt and the revised numbers.
[color=red]I wasn't here for that, I only know the stories I have been told. But from what I understand, the whole guard was not wiped out. Some had the protection of Parma, shared by the old guy who used to run the place. And these survivors are the ones that drove off the attackers. I would say that well proves the worth of live soldiers who can think for themselves and take action.
As for mercenaries, this covenant has a contract for thirty that, as of 1236, goes back six years. The Gold Griffons. I do want to reduce our dependancy on them, but I do not wish to dismiss them entirely. They are a good recruiting tool, and through their parent company, a source of reinforcements and reserves.
I am also thinking of more than just the defense of the keep. There are a dozen magi and a half dozen island properties. And, as a Flambeau magus, I am thinking about adventures & expeditions. I would like to be able to grab six guys and visit Denmark or Israel. Explore the forests of Novgorod and the Gugrachan laden hills of Loch Legean.
And I am but one of twelve magi! Imagine if two others have planned expeditions as well, and three others travelling abroad. That requires two dozen soldiers and at least a half dozen assistants, for off site interests.
Perhaps some of us do not grasp how large this covenant really is!
*** I do not have an appropriate character to voice this, but it needs to be voiced***
The covenant is large, but Arans is not. If we are to keep so many men at arms it should be done as Nobles do it, distributed over many locations where they can be called together as needed, none of them in sufficient concentration to give worry to the local nobility, unless of course it is a local nobility which works for us and is keeping them on their estate.
There is no local nobility to worry about, but you have a good point and have inspired ideas. A portion will be stationed at various points in the Balearic Islands, with various magi and their manors and the docks at Portmany. Others will stay at the keep. And we own a tavern in Valnord where foreign aristocrats and their body guards vacation often. Easy to blend in.
However, to counter I say it is an error to think of them as troops to be called up. The names and structure are military, but the style and activity is more akin to paramilitary. Roberto wants to call them soldiers. Really they are glorified security guards. Deployed as needed has them spaced out.