Anulus Connectens: Andreva of Jerbiton

[ironboundtome]

@Erik Tyrrell

@ironboundtome

I support the view that the weapon needs some way being quasi-sentient. It's not the finesse as such, it's that the weapon will continue to strip in the manner controlled by the caster. Animation spells normally have a requisite, animal or Mentem. Wouldn't that apply here too?

Can you find me an example of an animation spell with a mentem requisite please? I'd like to see one to crib from but none come to mind.

Hmm, from cannon I don't think I can. I asked for help on the forums a while ago for granting speech to stone with one spell and then sight with another url=https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/spells-for-moderation-sentience-and-voice-to-stone/8935/3[/url] and used a base 4 guideline and then added a Corpus requisite. I thought the two effects were better separated for my purposes, and it's not really a match to what you're proposing, so take it or leave it. .

@Erik Tyrrell

There is a guideline under Rego Herbam that had slipped my mind

10 Make a plant or thing made from plant products move with purpose and intelligence, without requiring your constant control

That's pretty much exactly what I want and it doesn't have a requisite. The example from this spell in the core book is the treacherous spear. The treacherous spear targets a weapon being held by someone and uses that person's combat scores to attack. The treacherous spear is dispelled by damaging the weapon. It is a bit different from my spell but it does show using a total derived from someplace else while the caster is not concentrating

Now I taking that guideline to terram I imagine that I''ll have to add two magnitudes for metal rather than wood. This annoys me from a game balance point of view but it certainly seems that the intention of the guidelines is to make doing things with metal more difficult than doing things with dirt even if it is weird in this circumstance. On the other hand unseen arm and unseen porter both ignore this restriction.

Do you think that using the caster's finesse makes as much sense with this guideline as using the combat statistics of the sword's last wielder? Is "as sensible or more sensible than this particular goofy legacy spell" too low a target to shoot for?

I take your point on the ReHe guideline and also for the circumstances; suggest that giving a form of intelligence to a plant should be easier, or at least different to doing that with stone as plants are already at least living. Inanimate dead substance has to change two fundamental properties, where a plant only needs to alter one (?).

I also thought the Treacherous Spear doesn't quite have true intellect to act on it's own to attack - it thrashes around wildly but doesn't really know to attack somebody in the same manner a caster would when using Finesse and controlling a spell directly. Were it to animate and continue to strike them in a dynamic manner I think it would be a better match. That's where I think there is a subtle difference. Basic animation is perhaps different to a plant that can react to stimulus outside some very simple pre-programmed instructions.

I remember a forum post from a while ago where the discussion talked about the difference between animating a statue with (just using ReTe) to move vs making it act like a bear (ReTe/An), and at what point is a requisite needed. From memory the difference was the degree of autonomy it needed and how broad it's range of abilities would be (or at least hat's what i took away from it).

[ironboundtome]

I went digging and found Stir the Slumbering Tree, Ars 135, MuHe/Me, which has a Mentem req. And Command of the Forest, ReHe/Me, MoH p40, which also requires Mentem, and is using the same baseline level 10 that you've mentioned.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

I take your point on the ReHe guideline and also for the circumstances; suggest that giving a form of intelligence to a plant should be easier, or at least different to doing that with stone as plants are already at least living. Inanimate dead substance has to change two fundamental properties, where a plant only needs to alter one (?).

I don't see intelegence as more of a property of stick than of a sword. We're talking about tree corpses here. Not living trees

I also thought the Treacherous Spear doesn't quite have true intellect to act on it's own to attack - it thrashes around wildly but doesn't really know to attack somebody in the same manner a caster would when using Finesse and controlling a spell directly. Were it to animate and continue to strike them in a dynamic manner I think it would be a better match

. I think that you're thinking of a different spell i was surprised when I read it yesterday (I thought I remembered the shaft of the spear getting bendy and wildly whipping around). The spear tries to break free of its wielder, in this attempt if it doesn't immediately succeed it has the awareness to thwart any attacks that its wielder is making (although that could possibly be ascribed to a side effect of the weapon trying to yank itself from the holder's grip, and when it gets free it attacks in exactly the animated manner that I envision using the combat stats of its previous wielder. That means if the spell is cast on someone with great weapon 8 and dex 5 the spell attacks with the skill of great weapon 8 and dex 5.

I went digging and found Stir the Slumbering Tree, Ars 135, MuHe/Me, which has a Mentem req. And Command of the Forest, ReHe/Me, MoH p40, which also requires Mentem, and is using the same baseline level 10 that you've mentioned.

Command the Forest is a particularly good example.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Tellus

Can you even use Finesse passively?

Finesse doesn't seem quite right to me but I like it better than any alternatives that I've thought of. A flat number,based on spell level is a possibility.I suppose I can describe an animated sword like RoP: Magic describes an animated tree but I'd really rather not. I just want a sword to fight I don't want it to do other tasks with this spell.

[Tellus]

The Circular Wall of Shields (ReTe 30, MoH, p. 50) does use Finesse, but provides a rather more limited effect (I think) than this spell.

And as I may have mentioned before, I'm personally weary of using MoH for effects without reflection.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

My examples are:

circular wall of shields that just moves shields in a circle rather than has them animate (it uses a different guideline) but it gives them a very favorable stat based on finesse and it lasts un-directed for duration sun.

Treacherous spear that attacks a single target and uses numbers based on the target it is attacking.

Command the Forrest, where the trees can follow simple commands but there is a mentem requisite. The numbers com from an animated tree write up.

I'm going to stick with finesse for numbers, not because it is good but because I like it more than my other choices.

I'm going to remove the ability of the spell to change targets. It will simply attack the target designated when the spell is cast, this makes it more like the examples that don't have a mentem requisite and I am not going to use a mentem requisite.

I'll use the bit about if you do a damage level to the sword it falls down this is in Treacherous spear and circular wall of sheilds. I don't like it as much as what I had earlier but I'll follow precedent.

I used the +10 levels for metal even though the porter spells don't

Insubstantial Duelist
ReTe 35
R: Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind.
This spell is cast upon a target sword or knife. The targeted blade will then fly and attack a target specified by the caster as if wielded by a person of average height and continue to attack them for the duration of the spell. The combat totals of the weapon are generated as if it had a wielder with a 0 in all attributes, and a weapon skill equal to the higher of the caster's finesse -3 or the caster's appropriate weapon skill. If the weapon is damaged it will cease its attacks and fall to the ground. One way to do this is by an attack roll against the sword's defense total (adjusted for the sword's size) that does +10 or greater damage against the sword's soak of 5. Andreva's sigil expresses itself in this spell by having the sword continually perform spins, flips and flourishes when it is not in combat.
(base 10 +2 metal, +2 voice, +1 diameter)

I don't like it as well as earlier versions but I feel it is more justifiable.

teram 22 rego 9 focus 9 int 3 aura 3 MT 6 = lab total 52 she'll need to do an unusual lab schedule for one season to get this done in two.

[jason72 (Jason)]

What about somehow using an Airy Spirit of Terram? The Ghost Touch power on page 102 of RoP:M seems to be what you want to achieve.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@jason72

What about somehow using an Airy Spirit of Terram? The Ghost Touch power on page 102 of RoP:M seems to be what you want to achieve.

Certainly you could do it that way (or at least with some spirit, airy spirits don't unambiguously have normal spirit abilities) but treacherous spear is a clear example that it can also be done in other ways. At this point in her life Andreva isn't in a position to pursue hermetic theurgy just so she can get things stabbed more efficiently. Stabbing is not among her most important goals, but she loves swords and I see her taking a few seasons here to develop Insubstantial Duelist.

(I'm still thinking of making it ten levels lower)

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Going on, Doctorcomics said

@Doctorcomics

I agree that it needs to penetrate Magic Resistance. My hunch is your maga is going to have ways to make that happen, which I look forward to seeing.

I don't have a real work around in mind. Of course, to my mind the obvious way to skirt the issue of magic resistance blocking insubstantial duelist is to hire a grog to duel with the sword instead. It has its drawbacks but also a lot of benefits.

But even more directly she can do this in a season:

[strike]Indolent Duelist of Vilano
ReTe 25
R: Touch, D: Inst. T: Ind
By casting this spell the caster propels an edged weapon that she is touching to be shot through the air in a direction she chooses. This spell hurls the sword as a projectile.
An aiming roll is required to hit the intended target. this aiming roll is one step more difficult it would be for a more aerodynamic object (a difficulty of 3 higher). Magic Resistance offers no protection against this spell. The sword inflicts +20 damage on impact and has a range increment of 20 paces.
(base 15, +1 metal, +1 touch)[/strike]

Indolent Duelist of Vilano
ReTe 25
R: Touch, D: Inst. T: Ind
By casting this spell the caster propels an edged weapon that she is touching to be shot through the air in a direction she chooses. This spell hurls the sword as a projectile.
An aiming roll is required to hit the intended target.The damage from the spell is computed in the same manner as that from a missile weapon (ArM5 p172) with the exception that the spell's aiming roll substitutes for the missile weapon's attack roll. This aiming roll is more difficult than it would be for a more aerodynamic object and has a penalty of 3 to the roll (analogous to a weapon with a negative attack value). Magic Resistance offers no protection against this spell. The sword inflicts +15 damage on impact and has a range increment of 20 paces.
(base 15, +1 metal, +1 touch)

I used the guidelines for +15 damage I made the aiming roll more difficult than invisible sling of vilano because throwing swords to my mind is a more challenging task than throwing sling stones. I added the accuracy penalty back in to the damage because I figured that if the sword does hit it should not be hitting more weakly than the stone (this does reduce the chance of just grazing with a flying sword) If invisible sling of vilano is non-combat damage then that was inappropriate. I added two additional points of damage beyond compensating for the accuracy hit because swords are sharp and I wanted to reflect this, furthermore it made a nice round number. I also used +1 magnitude for metal. The Societates guideline is explicitly for rock. figured that metal was one magnitude higher.

Edit: additional revisions to the spell are discussed here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32010

[Erik_Tyrrell]

An issue that Andreva has to deal with during this period is finding a way to make the covenant's finances more secure. Looking at her abilities, her high rego terram score and her high finesse make craft magic useful tool.

I decided that she could, without too much effort, create a rock quarry and produce a lot of work in an given afternoon (but not so much as to glut the market with cheap stone). She knows Miner's Keen Eye from her apprenticeship which should help her in this. She'll need to use the Redcaps to get the material sold (Is that sensible Christian?)

Outside of her focus her rego terram lab total is 43 so she can produce the following two spells in a single season (One craft spell and one not).
One spell to cut stones:

[strike]Mason's Certain Employment[/strike] Mystical Quarry Workers
ReTe 10
R:Touch, D: Inst., T: Part (+1 size)
This spell slices up a section of rock into well dressed blocks suitable for building. The size and shape of the blocks are determined by the caster at the time of casting. The quality of the stone cutting is determined by a finesse roll. The ease factor for producing quality stone suitable for sale is 12 (easy task, +3 for craft magic +3 for doing a months worth of work).
(base2, +1 stone, +1 touch, +1 part, +1 size)

The name is awful. Any ideas for a better one? Is cutting stone normally a task requiring a craft profession roll of 6 or is it higher or lower? There is a bit of context for this ease factor in Covenants but not so much I feel certain about my judgement.

One spell to uncover them

[strike]Myriad of Terrified Gophers[/strike] Jet of Soil and Sand
ReTe 10
R:Voice, D: Inst., T: Part
This spell moves approximately 10 cubic paces of sand, clay, or dirt from its location to another location within the range of the spell. The dirt flies from its original spot to the second over the course of a few seconds in a tremendous spurt, like a river of soil. This motion is generally too slow to be used as a weapon but it could be used to bury immobile objects or creatures.
(base 3 +2 voice, +1 part)

This still leaves one spell to move rocks and perhaps one to see if removing rocks will cause a collapse of the area to finish the stone quarry idea, but I've already posted three spells without giving a chance for feedback so I'll pause for now.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

One season for this (again with a +1 modifier from an enhanced lab schedule)

Sounding the Bones of Atlas
InTe 20
R Touch, D: Inst., T: Part (+2 size)
The caster gains a detailed understanding of what removing each part of a mass of stone and earth will do to the stability. For a moment the caster understands all of the rock strengths and forces in a volume of stone that he or she touches. This insight is sufficient to answer any questions that the caster may have regarding how they can trigger a collapse, where they can mine without triggering one,and what places in the targeted volume are most in need of reinforcement to prevent collapse. However the caster does not retain all of the value of this insight indefinitely. If they later wish to know more about the stability of the area they will typically need to re-cast the spell rather than rely on their memory. Andreva's sigil expresses itself in this spell by giving special emphasis on the ways to remove stone to provide the best surfaces for detailed engraving.
(base 4, +1 touch, +1 part, +2 size)

Base 4 is learn one mundane property of an item I used it to learn a mundane property of a volume in detail. Is there any issue with that?

[Erik_Tyrrell]

One season for this with a good deal of free time left over

Stones of Formic Discipline
ReTe 20
R:Touch, D: Conc., T: Group

For the duration of this spell, a group of stones touched by the caster moves just above the ground at walking speed. the stones are unable to clear sharp changes in elevation of more than a half a pace or so such as cliffs, fences, and cut banks by streams. The rocks can however move up over the top of other rocks in the group, stacking themselves and creating ladder-like piles to allow the rest of the rocks to pass. Andreva's sigil expresses itself in that rocks often move in complex patterns as if doing marching maneuvers or formal dances when she is not paying direct attention to them.
(base 3, +1 stone, +1 touch, +1 concentration, +2 group)

Now I'd better wait for at least one or two bits on feedback on the 5 new spells I've posted before going on.

[Tellus]

Sounding the Bones of Atlas and Stones of Formic Discipline are both excellent and awesome!

[Sanctaphrax]

New spells look good to me.

If you need some way to justify lowering the sword-animation spell level, you could say that the sword doesn't really defend against attacks. Stabbing is a very simple action, dodging's a bit more complex.

Also, you could say that the sword stops attacking if the caster falls unconscious or loses sight of it. It is mentally controlled on some level, after all. Maybe put a cap on the number of swords you can control too.

That makes me think: later in her career, she could invent a version with Target: Group which sends dozens of swords to mob some poor sap.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Yes, a target group version and another similar group spell are already on the schedule for later (they would have come up now if the original spell was a more manageable level).

I was most worried about my invisible sling of vilano variant with regard to how it calculates damage.

Going on, I have two single season spells

A spell to get swords where she needs them to go;

Sedate Butterfly Sword
ReTe20
R: Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind.
The sword, dagger or knife targeted by this spell. Flys through the air at the precise direction of the caster. I moves at the speed of a trotting horse. in any direction including straight up. While this speed is not normally sufficient to engage in combat it can still hinder creatures. Control over the sword can only be exerted by the caster while the sword is within voice range of him or her. If not controlled the sword will continue to move in its previous direction or remain stationary in its location until the spell expires. If the spell is cast upon a weapon being held by a person who does not wish for the sword to get away from them the wielder can maintain control with a strength roll of ease factor 6. The sword's movement is strong enough to carry a creature of size 0 or smaller up in the albeit at the speed of a slow walk when gaining altitude. In Andreva's version of this spell the swords often dip and pirouette.
(base 3, +2 metal, +2 voice, +1 diameter)

and a spell to keep them there:

Sword, Immobile
ReTe 25
R: Voice, D: Sun, T: Ind.
When a sword, knife or similar tool is targeted by this spell the item becomes nearly impossible to move. The item stays in its present position and orientation until the spell ends, even if this position is in mid air. The spell's hold is not infinitely powerful. The targeted swords can be moved as if they had the strength of a large, strongly resisting elephant (size +5 str +9) with its feet firmly set. Andrevea uses this spell to anchor swords for use as pulleys, to serve as steps, to block doors from opening, to support make-shift bridges and similar uses. When Andreva casts this spell her sigil expresses itself in the reflections on the blades which become more detailed than normal with some of the reflected items appearing more ornate than in the real world.
(base 3, +2 metal, +1 voice, +2 sun, +1 exceptional strength)

[Christian_Andersen (Christian Rosenkjaer Andersen)]

@Erik Tyrrell

One season for this with a good deal of free time left over

Stones of Formic Discipline
ReTe 20
R:Touch, D: Conc., T: Group

For the duration of this spell, a group of stones touched by the caster moves just above the ground at walking speed. the stones are unable to clear sharp changes in elevation of more than a half a pace or so such as cliffs, fences, and cut banks by streams. The rocks can however move up over the top of other rocks in the group, stacking themselves and creating ladder-like piles to allow the rest of the rocks to pass. Andreva's sigil expresses itself in that rocks often move in complex patterns as if doing marching maneuvers or formal dances when she is not paying direct attention to them.
(base 3, +1 stone, +1 touch, +1 concentration, +2 group)

Now I'd better wait for at least one or two bits on feedback on the 5 new spells I've posted before going on.

That spell is awesome!

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Thank you all, I'm glad that Stones of Formic Discipline is so popular.

Andreva will want to learn both Edge of the Razor MuTe 20 (arM5 p154) and Hardness of Adamantine MuTe25 (MoH: Soc p37). So she'll want to get a hold of lab texts. I'm going to say that her detractors in the Confraternity of Roland prevent her from getting access notes for Hardness of Adamantine but edge of the razor is to common to allow this

She'll learn Edge of the Razor in one season and invent Hardness of Adamantine in 2

[Erik_Tyrrell]

A lesser enchanted device Glove of Marble Lumber

22 terram
6 muto
5 magic theory
3 intelligence
3 aura
4 shape bonus
gives me a lab total of 43 enough for a level 21 lesser enchanted device.

The Glove of Marble lumber has one effect
MuTe 21 pen 0 50 uses per day
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Group
A group of stones up to one cubic pace in size touched by the glove of marble lumber is altered in density so that weighs the same as an equivalent volume of hardwood. This effect naturally expires over the course of sunrise and sunset with the rocks regaining their former density gradually. As a result of Andreva's sigil the rocks targeted by The Glove of Marble Lumber frequently have repeated detailed patterns over their surfaces during the duration of the item's effect.
(base 1, +1 stone, +1 touch, +2 Sun, +2 group, + 6 levels 50 uses per day)

Muto terram "change one property of dirt" seems to be a pretty powerful guideline for base 1. However, seeing as pumice is a real stone I don't feel that I over reached.

[ironboundtome]

For Sword Immobile I think you need base 3 as that's a highly unnatural effect.
I used a similar spell for Object is Stubborn a little while ago here. The thread also chatted about the relative strength/ force.

[Tellus]

@Erik Tyrrell

The Glove of Marble lumber has one effect
MuTe 21 pen 0 50 uses per day
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Group
A group of stones up to one cubic pace in size touched by the glove of marble lumber is altered in density so that weighs the same as an equivalent volume of hardwood. This effect naturally expires over the course of sunrise and sunset with the rocks regaining their former density gradually. As a result of Andreva's sigil the rocks targeted by The Glove of Marble Lumber frequently have repeated detailed patterns over their surfaces during the duration of the item's effect.
(base 1, +1 stone, +1 touch, +2 Sun, +2 group, + 6 levels 50 uses per day)

Muto terram "change one property of dirt" seems to be a pretty powerful guideline for base 1. However, seeing as pumice is a real stone I don't feel that I over reached.

I agree that it does seem very powerful. But I also agree that this appears to be within guidelines.