Anyone made an Infernal Summoner?

Or a regular Summoner for that matter? It's a new Mythic Companion in the Infernal book. I was working on making an old and powerful one yesterday and so far I'm pretty impressed with his power, they have great options with bound spirits. I brought him up to 140 years old and intend to do at least 5 years of lab work on infernal items, and roughly 5 wasted years (from Twilight etc).

I used the main rules for wizards combined with the Virtue rules for Mythic Companions (2 Virtues for every 1 Flaw). From there I created a basic skill set that requires 90 points and gave 240 XP and a 15 year apprenticeship, and then gave him 30 XP per year.

I'm still working on him, but if anyone has an idea on a different way of how I might do this, ie maybe the correct way :laughing: please let me know. Once I have him finished I'll likely post him.

I believe 30xp per year is too much if the character is neither Wealthy nor have a covenant supporting him (which amounts to the same). What social class Virtue/Flaw did you take for him?

I took the Outcast minor flaw for him. I kind of envision him as being part of a covenant, kinf of like the stereotypical Gothic castle on the hill overlooking a haunted forest. But yeah one of the things I was worried about was whether 30 xp was too much. Since I was trying to make him as a powerful adversary for powerful wizards, I went with 30 a year even if it's not quite accurate. Kind of a measuring stick for nonhermetic wizards.

Not yet - I've only just recieved TMRE and RoP:tI. (O frabjous joy! etc. etc.)

It's good to see a workable "Spirit Master" back, particularly as I wasn't expecting any hedge magicians of note until the Hedge Magic book proper from the comments by David Chart on the Berklist and elsewhere.

Wasn't Nicolai a character in the original ArM4 Hedge Magic book?

I need to read through TMRE a bit more but I pretty sure you could simulate a Mythic Companion Sahir or Jewish Necromancer ala ArM4 Blood & Sand or a similar MC Theurgist character using a combination of these rules based on Summoning with the option of aving it aligned to the Magic Realm.

Of course the real trick is to give the character either Ablation or Command as an Infernal Power but with the Delusion that their ability to command/coerce creatures is not infernally sourced but rather derives from the Magical Realm. From a skim read this seems to fit with RoP:tI reasonably well and is in character for this period of history IIRC but I'll have to read a bit futher...

Makes an interesting role-playing angle as well - Harut and Marut being fallen angels/grigori/Watchers according to sources and B&S.

The "sorceror" section of RoP:tI that briefly details the Summoner MC seems to be an oblique reference to Jewish Necromancers in any case.

I'd be interested in what Niall (author of B&S) had to say, but as he doesn't appear to be a playtester in either book, I suspect he may not have aid hands on them just yet.



All this reminds me to bug Timothy about whether ArM5 Taoists are Faerie aligned hedge wizards with False Powers or just Infernalists with Delusions of holiness. (No offense to any Taoists out there - I'm speaking strictly ArM5 terms as I'm still grappling with how to deal with non-Abrahamic religions and the Divine Realm).

I didn't attempt to get involved in the development of either of these books, as I've had my hands rather full with my academic projects lately. However, I'll be picking both up from my local games shop today (shipping to Canada takes a while, and they've only just arrived). I'll aim to post some thoughts once I've had a chance to devour them. :slight_smile:

Have you figured out what kind of infernal creature a summoner that uses ablation to get infernal Might becomes?

I suppose "demon" would be a great answer, especially as "Any creature with an Infernal Might score may be properly called a demon" (p28). On the other hand Chapter Four makes a lot of statements about demons that just doesn't seem to apply to some creatures with Infernal Might. Demon Children, mostly.

It does make a lot of difference, really. If summoners do become "demons", they get a spirit form and are immune to aging. But they would also get several difficult personality issues, so I doubt it's really worth it.

Anyone got an opinion?

// Fredrik Hertzberg

I would basically go by the rules of "Characters with MIght" which is in the Infernal book. Most characters that get Might get it only temporarily any way.

BTW for this Summoner once he hit 35 he bound a rather weak spirit (comparatively to him) with a Might of 15 and only 1 Personality Trait, mainly so he wouldn;t have to make Aging rolls. It's one of the ost reliable (if you call binding a demon to yourself reliable) anti-aging systems. Bind a demon to yourself and you make NO aging rolls, which is much better than getting a bonus to aging rolls. He gets a Warping point a year and takes on the Personality Traits of the Demon, but to someonelike this that's a small price. He also gets their magic resistance. My final step fro him is to have him bind the most powerful demon he can (I'm shooting for a way for him to get a 50 Might Demon) into a ring so he'll have the enhanced resistance to magic and then add some enchantments to the ring with his Incantation and Corruption powers he has. I'll have an update soon.

This is really cool. I can't wait to see it!

I agree with Fruny that 30xp a year might be a bit much. 20 would probably be better, since it's the reason the Wealthy Virtue is Major. Since he can't die once he has a demon bound to him, it doesn't really matter how old he is, so he can still get pretty darn powerful as the years go by. However, I see you have him associated with a covenant, so I suppose you could do extremely detailed character generation and assume he has access to good books and teachers, which could very well work out to 30 xp a year.

Yep. I put him in to show how you can convert these characters from Fourth Edition, if you want to. One of the monks from Black Monks of Glastonbury is in there, too.

I'd say he will almost certainly become a demon, though this is not an instantaneous transformation. I'd suggest that when he dies, his spirit remains on earth as an infernal ghost, which is then treated as a demon (as noted on page 36).

Yup, "Characters with Might" is a good start, but as it's concerned with any kind of Might it's rather generic.

Oh? Well that does seem to make sense. Then, until he dies he works exactly like a regular human but with a Might score, right?
How many ablation points does it cost to learn a Power? I can't seem to find any mention of it in the rules.

How come you want to bind a demon? Isn't it rather difficult to find a demon with might 50 in the first place?

// Fredrik Hertzberg

The last step of binding the level 50 demon is quite a task, I'm looking for every exploit I can. Infernal Vis, sacrifices, True Name, a powerful aura etc. With that demon bound into an item he'd have a magic resistance of 50, he'd use that Demon's Hierarchy score, he'd have an item that he could put powerful effects into to help him out etc. With that item, plus having several weaker demons for muscle, he'd be quite a threat to any wizard that went after him.

In that case, don't forget to get yourself a good confidence score as well.

The way I read the rules you only get a demons hierarchy if you bind it to yourself. Other interpretation?

While this gives plenty of raw power, I would also recommend getting "Duplicate the Magi's (Technique)" for some flexibility. Suppose you would have to bind the demon to yourself then, though.

What I was trying to ask in my last post, was not mainly why you want to bind a demon at all, but rather why you want to bind a demon as opposed to a faery or magical creature. Faery and magical creatures often have higher might scores than infernal creatures, making it easier to find a suitable "candidate". And if your hierarchy score is lower than that of the demon you want to bind it is a good thing if neither of you have to add it to your totals.

// Fredrik Hertzberg

Yes. It's sort of like a Magic Resistance score, except that he can use it to fuel powers and stuff like that. Also it makes him immune to Warping, and he couldn't be aligned to any other realms. So, for a magus, this probably isn't a good thing, because he'd probably lose his Gift.

D'oh! Well, according to the rules it doesn't cost any, or only one. :slight_smile: I'd suggest leaving this up to the storyguide, but as a rough guideline, you could treat a single point as a Minor Virtue, three points as a Major Virtue, or if it's a power you could use its cost in Might Points as a rough value.

Good. I was a bit worried that it might affect his personality, so that he would have to follow the "Using Demons in your Saga" guidelines.

Out of curiousity, is there any real limit to the ablotionists infernal might? The entire process of summon-ablate shouldn't take any significant amounts of time as long as only spirits close by are used. Getting a Confidence score of 10 would take (275 /2 = 137.5) Might 10 spirits. But 137.5 times a couple of minutes still isn't all that long. Botching could be a problem (how many botch dices?), but a summoner lucky enough to have Cautious with summoning would be more or less allright. The real danger seems to be relatives of the spirits the summoner kills. How prone to revenge are the regular spirit?
What kind of might score did you originally envision for a successfull ablationist?

Nice book by the way. I think I am actually starting to worry just as much about the immortal soul of my characters as for their well-being here and now.

// Fredrik Hertzberg

You have also included Relegante of Flambeau, from the Iberia Tribunal Sourcebook, one of the Shadow Flambeaus.

I have really enjoyed how you have updated her. The change from "craft sex toys" to "craft hex toys" is just brilliant... and the update makes right one of the worse NPC described in White wolf's sourcebooks...

No, you're okay there. You're stealing the demon's power and using it for your own ends.

Yes, his (Confidence Score x 5), and the spirit's Might Score. He can't exceed either of these, so he will have to increase his Confidence as well as find more powerful spirits as he develops.

I'd personally give a lot of botch dice; sucking the power out of spirits should be risky. He should get dice for the aura, and I might even go so far as to tack on an additional die for each level of the demon's Hierarchy Score, to represent Hell's interest. If he botches even once, I'd say he should have to check for Vituperation.

Well, once spirits become aware of the fact that there's someone who can suck away their power in the vicinity, I'd imagine they'd become pretty desparate and attack out of self-interest. Even if he's just affecting Magic or Faerie spirits, I'd suggest the character get a local reputation to describe this phenomenon.

I'd say an average sorcerer would probably have around 15-20 Might, with a Confidence Score of 3 or 4. A Mythic sorcerer, someone like Conrad the inquisitor might have twice that; perhaps a Confidence Score of 8 and as much as 40 Might (scary!).

Awesome! Thanks for the compliment. Something I think is really scary about the Infernal is how the more you look after your immortal soul, the more they hate you and want to corrupt and/or destroy you.

Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad you liked our take on her. I hope the mention inspires at least one group to play out the rise of the Shadow Flambeaux again in their Iberian saga.

Speaking of which, there appears to be an inconsistency in how the maximum number of ablation points is computed: the text indicates that the limit is the Might of the spirit, while the formula gives Might/5. Which one is it?

Then there is the question: if a diabolist has a Might Score, is he still human? Ablation grants a Might Score, doesn't it, and not just Might Points?

Ew, yes, it should be (Might / 5). It's like pulling vis out of the spirit; if your total is high enough to suck 5 points out but the being has only Might 15, you only get three.

Ablation grants a Might Score, yes, and like a Devil Child the character is no longer human, strictly speaking. However, there aren't any limitations to the character beyond those mentioned in the box on page 84; the character isn't immortal or bound to the rules for demons or anything like that. Although, yes, the character's also immune to Vituperation at that point, though I suppose Hell might come after him in other ways.