Anyone made an Infernal Summoner?

[Jarkman]

I think sahirs would make a great Mythic Companion, using a Special Virtue similar to that of Summoner, but with a more defined Virtue and Flaw package.

@niallchristie

Firstly, since the major targets of sahirs' summonings are jinn, which are now Faerie creatures, most sahirs would be aligned with the Faerie realm, though it would also be possible to play Magic, Infernal and even (very rarely) Divine sahirs.

I agree, although I think a Divine sahir would be limited as Erik once pointed out that commanding/binding creatures isn't exactly the most noble of pursuits. There's the precedent of King Solomon though, but it could be argued that he had Holy Powers and Methods rather than pure versions of Summon/Command etc.

Jere & Adam's Jewish Necromancers from K:MJ can be elegantly modeled with Second Sight, Summoning (Magic), Command (Infernal) & Ghostly Warder IMO. They could suffer from a Delusion that their Command powers were not Infernally tainted - an idea I explore for sahirs in this thread:

Ars Goetia other than Summoning

Is Summoning necessary to use the other Ars Goetia Arts such as Ablation, Binding and Commanding? - the text implies that an unrestrained (ie not summoned using the Summoning power) entity is harder to affect with the other Goetic Arts (ie. double the might in order to have an effect), but it seems possible to use a Goetic Art on an entity summoned by Hermetic magic or encountered in the course of an adventure. If my Strife Criamon apopotraic demonslayer with the Binding ability encounters a ve…

Sahirs would definitely have their own versions of the Summon and Command Goetic arts, and probably Binding as well.

I've thought of renaming Summoning/Istidhar and Command/Istikdam, but then thought why complicate things? The subtleties of what a sahir could summon/command (B&S p68) are not really that different IMO.

In ArM5, per the Line Editor, Magic/Faerie Realm aligned magic can't provide MR via borrowing an entity's Might so that's not a possible why would you have an almost identical Supernatural Method which is weaker than an existing one and only differs in that it is aligned to a differnet Realm (aside from minor power/realm interaction differences)? Why have a Command style power that can't command demons instead of the same power with just the roleplaying of aspect of can but shouldn't.

The Infernal is always attractive...

I imagine that only Infernal sahirs would use Ablation.

It's just truly evil, eh? I suspect Guorna used this power for longevity... Which means most sahir don't have access to longevity rituals etc, a big departure from ArM4 ideas.

They'd probably have their own version of Synthemata Magia as well, to enable them to research information about spirits they might like to summon.

Well, they could use the Major Supernatural Mystery Virtue Synthemata Magia (TMRE, p87), but a) it's pretty weak as it's based off a single Ability rather than 2 Arts scores and b) it's designed with Hermetic MuVi spells as a base. Still since it's probably derived from a non-Hermetic tradition, it could be back engineered to work using Goetic Art (or equiv) + (Realm) Lore instead.

I'm wondering whether jinn (Faerie) should have True Names, but Erik seems to disagree with me and votes for synthemata instead.

It would seem the Planets should have True Names though, regardless of whether they are Divine (interesting), Magic (probable as they are impassive) or Infernal entities masquerading as angels (cf Aerial Powers, RoP:tI, p42 - a very interesting possibility for a darkly themed Saga). Can't see the Planets as being Faerie aligned though.

Sahirs would certainly have Second Sight

Yes, but didn't they also have Magic Sensitivity in Arm4?

and to account for the planetary aspect, I would suggest the Planetary Magic virtue from TMRE, used to help instill magical effects into bound spirits. I would suggest buildng a lab total using Summon (i.e. drawing down the planet's influence), Artes Liberales, Intelligence and aura, with the sahir being able to instill effects that fall under the purview of the planets. The RDTs of these effects could be derived from a mix of the Hermetic ones and the ones from RoP:D, with B&S providing a general guideline. Of course the lab total could be increased by using Planetary Magic to pick the right time to work. It probably wouldn't be out of place to allow the sahirs to create periapts as well.

The Astrological aspects of sahirs seem to be the most difficult to me to replicate under ArM5, although I like your proposal which makes sense given the role of Artes Liberales (Astronomy) in all the Astrological Mysteries etc. This makes an ArM5 version of the sahir near the same league as an Hermetic magus, but the precedent appears to be there with the introduction of non-Hermetic Arts in the form of the 4 Ars Goetia.

Most of the Astrological Virtues would need to be gained through Mystery induction/initiation. This might fit - I've always wondered if your concept of sahirs was a blend of Islamic spirit masters and the monotheistic astrologer-wizards of the Sabaens of Harran (although they might work better as holy characters)

If you introduce the bonus to spellcasting bonus derived from Astronomy through Celestial Magic (provided you've been initiated into that Major Mystery Virtue or a similar hedge equivalent or even just that power as a separate sahir specific Minor Virtue perhaps) you can come pretty close to the old ArM4 conception of a sahir.

This would all cost 1 (Second Sight) + 3 (Summon) + 3 (Command) + 3 (Binding), + 1 (Planetary Magic), +1 (Periapts), + 3 (Celestial Magic) = 15 Virtue points, which is hefty even for a Mythic Companion with V/F 21/10.

Even if you discard some of the later Astrological Virtues and make the tradition have Second Sight and the 3 Ars Goetia Virtues as Favoured Abilities, it's still a tall ask.

Most sahir were Gifted in ArM4 (under the older definition), I'm not sure how easy this would be to make work in ArM5 with this approach even if you used Favoured Abilities and later Mystery initiation. I'd see unGifted Mythic Companion sahir, with a set tradition of 4 Favoured Abilities and the possibility of later initiation as the most viable option, but make Magical Air a mandatory Flaw in the initial package in that case.

You still don't have Parma (and no MR unless Infernally derived) and lack the dual Arts spellcasting mechanic with only a limited range of magcial powers so I don't think this conception would break through the Hermetic glass ceiling, but it would be an interesting alternative to a magus.

I'll probably formalise all this into an article for SHR eventually, though as classes are about to start it might be a wee while!

I think that would be a great idea! (and would be willing to help if desired)

Regards,

Jarkman