One of the things I believe is wrong is that he probably doesn't have enough Warping points/score. For having a demon bound to him for 105 years he gets a minimum of 105 Warping points, that translates to a 6 Score, and from there I add an additional 30 for various accumulations. However he might actually have accumulated 2 per year since 35, giving him a 210 for a score of 8/15 plus or minus a few. I didn't have any Twilights/Vituperations either, which with the amount of summonings and such he did, he's likely to have had one or two.
OK doing the math on his quest to get Adramalech he's got a ways to go still. His demon summoning total for a demon that he has a True Name for is 128 (25+4+14+50+35) this includes his Summoning, Presence, Infernal Lore (plus speciality and Student of Infernal Virtue), Penetration+multiplier and his Hierarchy. Adamalech has a Might of 50 and a Hierarchy of 9 giving him a resistance of 95. While he can do it, he's best off with double Adramalech's resistance, and would need 190 minimum.
To add some bonuses, obviously he'll want to make at least one Sacrifice of an innocent for a +10 (assuming sacrifices can help a Summoning), if possible the easiest thing for him to do would be to sacrifice several innocents. Sacrificing 7 (an auspicious number) would give him what he needed. He could also add some infernal Vis, assuming that the vis is used the same was as normal, 25 pawns (and a lot of risk) would give him a +50, then a sacrifice and he'd only need 2 more which can be done with a Confidence point. 7 sacrifices would probably make for an easier roll, but poses its own difficulties of course. Finally he can add 9 points by spending Confidence which he'll definitely do if he can't get enough sacrifices or vis. So his 5 years that he'll spend will probably be on finding several sacrifices and arranging for the best night to summon and command the King of Fire.
Of course if vis and sacrifices don't work, he'll have to take his chances and offer some thing that he wants in exchange. That's rather a different kind of deal than he's used to, most of his summonings are considerably easier, as he usually doubles their Might and often has a higher Hierarchy.
Wow, that is frightening. 
It occurs to me that a good way to fight many infernalists might be to hit them with CrVi spells that cause Warping. Assuming you penetrate their resistance, it pretty effectively deals with them, as it sends them into Vituperation. Of course with someone like this guy, who has a demon bound to him, it just gives the demon control of the body until he comes back, so maybe that isn't the best strategy after all...
Do you know how many different demons he's swallowed up? You could say each one gave him a point of Infernal Reputation, and that should make it easier to calculate his Hierarchy Score. I'd also suggest you have him eat the Might of a lesser demon at some point to make him immune to Warping and Vituperation. It makes him more vulnerable to magic, though, and would make him much more easily recognizable as a diabolist, so maybe you'd rather he just take his chances with botches.
He does seem amazingly diverse in his diabolic skills. What would happen if you focused more on, say, four of these abilities instead of six? Like, put a lot less experience in Commanding and Ablating? If his life goal is to trap a prince of Hell, I wonder if he shouldn't specialize more in Binding. You could possibly even forgo Commanding altogether, and spend the extra Virtue points on Affinities.
That's a cool comment coming from the guy that wrote the book. I just create with the tools I'm given 
That makes Criamon rather effective at fighting diabolists even if they're pacifists.
Then there's that to consider.
Basically the way I looked at it he got 1 Ablation per Season, from a 5 Might Demon each time probably, enough to kill it so he wouldn't have to worry about revenge, and also an easy snack. The later years when he was trying to get a 4 in some stats he'd be more selective as he'd have to eat Demons that had a 4 as well. By my papaerwork it looks like maybe he'd have to eat 4 per year for 10 years and then 2 per year for 5, so 50 altogether (yeah that'll make a mark for you in Hell!). So by that formula he had a 3/0 Hierarchy plus 50, that's 5/5. Considering that ablated demons can provide some quick and easy XP for Knowledges he might have eaten a few others when they couldn't raise his stats to a 4. But that sounds pretty fair, he'd still be at 5 that way.
I considered that, as his Warping gets high enough to potentially cause Final Twilight that would certainly be his best option to stave off his fate. The main problem is that he'd lose 2 of his Supernatural Abilities (Second Sight and Sense Holiness). It's probably the best idea in all honesty, but I have to ask, doesn't it seem then that infernalists (especially those that couldBind and Ablate) get virtual immortality on the cheap? No aging rolls at all and no Warping at all. On the plus side for GMs this makes for easy explanations for having really powerful and old adversaries.
Yes, he's definitely pretty diverse, I could easily drop a few skills altogether to be more focused. One skill I almost forgot which is very important is Concentration, I only added it on in the last few years. I'd say all of his infernal talents are pretty important as he can get quite a bit of mileage out of them. But Ablating could probably be dropped a few points, but that wouldn't raise his others that much, he's better off dropping some of his skills that are perhaps a bit more scholastic than he needs.
Once I get some more time, I'll straighten out a few things like his flaw and might reorganize his expenditure a bit. I'll also try to put a history to this bad boy and a description of him and the enchantments and other goodies he has.
What about Vis and sacrifices? Do they work as I talked about for Summoning? Do the higher levels of tainted Vis help more for a summoning or binding?
bump I promised I'd reply once I'd had a chance to absorb (or should that be bind?) the books.
It strikes me that it would be very easy to put together an MC sahir using primarily the rules found in RoP:I, but also with a splash of stuff from TMRE to account for the planetary summoning abilities of the sahirs. Here are a few general points.
Firstly, since the major targets of sahirs' summonings are jinn, which are now Faerie creatures, most sahirs would be aligned with the Faerie realm, though it would also be possible to play Magic, Infernal and even (very rarely) Divine sahirs.
Sahirs would definitely have their own versions of the Summon and Command Goetic arts, and probably Binding as well. I imagine that only Infernal sahirs would use Ablation. They'd probably have their own version of Synthemata Magia as well, to enable them to research information about spirits they might like to summon.
Sahirs would certainly have Second Sight, and to account for the planetary aspect, I would suggest the Planetary Magic virtue from TMRE, used to help instill magical effects into bound spirits. I would suggest buildng a lab total using Summon (i.e. drawing down the planet's influence), Artes Liberales, Intelligence and aura, with the sahir being able to instill effects that fall under the purview of the planets. The RDTs of these effects could be derived from a mix of the Hermetic ones and the ones from RoP:D, with B&S providing a general guideline. Of course the lab total could be increased by using Planetary Magic to pick the right time to work. It probably wouldn't be out of place to allow the sahirs to create periapts as well.
Of course, with all these Virtues, the character's allotment is filling up rather...
I'll probably formalise all this into an article for SHR eventually, though as classes are about to start it might be a wee while!
I think sahirs would make a great Mythic Companion, using a Special Virtue similar to that of Summoner, but with a more defined Virtue and Flaw package.
I agree, although I think a Divine sahir would be limited as Erik once pointed out that commanding/binding creatures isn't exactly the most noble of pursuits. There's the precedent of King Solomon though, but it could be argued that he had Holy Powers and Methods rather than pure versions of Summon/Command etc.
Jere & Adam's Jewish Necromancers from K:MJ can be elegantly modeled with Second Sight, Summoning (Magic), Command (Infernal) & Ghostly Warder IMO. They could suffer from a Delusion that their Command powers were not Infernally tainted - an idea I explore for sahirs in this thread:
I've thought of renaming Summoning/Istidhar and Command/Istikdam, but then thought why complicate things? The subtleties of what a sahir could summon/command (B&S p68) are not really that different IMO.
In ArM5, per the Line Editor, Magic/Faerie Realm aligned magic can't provide MR via borrowing an entity's Might so that's not a possible why would you have an almost identical Supernatural Method which is weaker than an existing one and only differs in that it is aligned to a differnet Realm (aside from minor power/realm interaction differences)? Why have a Command style power that can't command demons instead of the same power with just the roleplaying of aspect of can but shouldn't.
The Infernal is always attractive...
It's just truly evil, eh? I suspect Guorna used this power for longevity... Which means most sahir don't have access to longevity rituals etc, a big departure from ArM4 ideas.
Well, they could use the Major Supernatural Mystery Virtue Synthemata Magia (TMRE, p87), but a) it's pretty weak as it's based off a single Ability rather than 2 Arts scores and b) it's designed with Hermetic MuVi spells as a base. Still since it's probably derived from a non-Hermetic tradition, it could be back engineered to work using Goetic Art (or equiv) + (Realm) Lore instead.
I'm wondering whether jinn (Faerie) should have True Names, but Erik seems to disagree with me and votes for synthemata instead.
It would seem the Planets should have True Names though, regardless of whether they are Divine (interesting), Magic (probable as they are impassive) or Infernal entities masquerading as angels (cf Aerial Powers, RoP:tI, p42 - a very interesting possibility for a darkly themed Saga). Can't see the Planets as being Faerie aligned though.
Yes, but didn't they also have Magic Sensitivity in Arm4?
The Astrological aspects of sahirs seem to be the most difficult to me to replicate under ArM5, although I like your proposal which makes sense given the role of Artes Liberales (Astronomy) in all the Astrological Mysteries etc. This makes an ArM5 version of the sahir near the same league as an Hermetic magus, but the precedent appears to be there with the introduction of non-Hermetic Arts in the form of the 4 Ars Goetia.
Most of the Astrological Virtues would need to be gained through Mystery induction/initiation. This might fit - I've always wondered if your concept of sahirs was a blend of Islamic spirit masters and the monotheistic astrologer-wizards of the Sabaens of Harran (although they might work better as holy characters)
If you introduce the bonus to spellcasting bonus derived from Astronomy through Celestial Magic (provided you've been initiated into that Major Mystery Virtue or a similar hedge equivalent or even just that power as a separate sahir specific Minor Virtue perhaps) you can come pretty close to the old ArM4 conception of a sahir.
This would all cost 1 (Second Sight) + 3 (Summon) + 3 (Command) + 3 (Binding), + 1 (Planetary Magic), +1 (Periapts), + 3 (Celestial Magic) = 15 Virtue points, which is hefty even for a Mythic Companion with V/F 21/10.
Even if you discard some of the later Astrological Virtues and make the tradition have Second Sight and the 3 Ars Goetia Virtues as Favoured Abilities, it's still a tall ask.
Most sahir were Gifted in ArM4 (under the older definition), I'm not sure how easy this would be to make work in ArM5 with this approach even if you used Favoured Abilities and later Mystery initiation. I'd see unGifted Mythic Companion sahir, with a set tradition of 4 Favoured Abilities and the possibility of later initiation as the most viable option, but make Magical Air a mandatory Flaw in the initial package in that case.
You still don't have Parma (and no MR unless Infernally derived) and lack the dual Arts spellcasting mechanic with only a limited range of magcial powers so I don't think this conception would break through the Hermetic glass ceiling, but it would be an interesting alternative to a magus.
I think that would be a great idea! (and would be willing to help if desired)
Regards,
Jarkman
Agreed!
If you choose to follow the ruling of the line editor, of course. 
Quite - why remove a perfectly good temptation! Regarding Binding, perhaps you could give most sahirs a minor version that only binds into objects, but Infernal sahirs might well choose to take the major version instead.
We seem to be working towards different V+F packages depending on realm affiliation...
As an alternative, for sahirs, one could extend the rules from RoP:I on converting experience in Infernal Lore into True Names to all the realms, if we choose to disagree with Erik and rule that all creatures have True Names.
True, but I'm not sure it's necessary in ArM5, but it could be added to the list...
I didn't have the Sabeans specifically in mind, but they probably had input into the Arabian magic tradition.
This all makes sense. I guess it depends how complicated you want to get. I prefer to keep things simple, which is why I would prefer to give an initial package of V+Fs and let sahirs work on perfecting those.
Well, when I get around to doing this, I might just send a draft your way for you dismantle.
Well I argued strongly with David about this a year ago - he stated his case and I countered, but I can see the value in some of what he says. I think Form specific MR ("bling-bling" MR) would be unworkable, but I don't think I managed to convince him that Realm-specific MR would be an option. Still, with the Ars Goetia or holy powers there's the possibility of universal MR but it comes at a price.
I can't get too mad because I think the precedent of non-Hermetic Arts such as the Ars Goetia in Arm5 (even if based on a single Art plus Ability mechanic rather than a dual Art mechanic) makes hedge magic a workable option that I would like to see explored.
Regardless of what I think anyway, canonical ArM5 hedge magic will not break this rule. In some ways though it adds to the roleplaying concept - the temptation to succumb to diabolism or the struggle to achieve true magical power through faith is a great Story Hook IMO.
Perhaps, but I think limiting the Major Virtue with a Flaw such as Restriction works better as granting the equivalent of a Major Virtue with only a small restriction as a Minor Virtue would break balance.
I can see Erik's point, but I'm still convinced this would be workable as synthemata and True Names achieve different things mechanically. I think the Planets shoudl certainly have True Names, perhaps learnt through Artes Liberales (Astrology). I'm wondering whether they should be Divine, Infernal or Magic spirits... or perhaps a mixture of entities that are often confused with each other - more thoughts on that later.
OK. You did mention them in B&S though, so I wondered. They would probable be the only workable Divine style astrologer tradition I could think of - probably wouldn't have more generic Summoning then or perhaps quite strict Restrictions or Necessary Conditions placed upon their powers (as commented above).
I would be glad to help.
Jarman
OK, this is a blatant shameless plug but it's directly relevant to the thread...
The answer is now yes, I have made an Infernal Summoner and he's now available at SHR for your perusal:
Salih al-Kamil, "Master of Storms"
geocities.com/sanctumhr/Spec ... kamil.html
The tragedy of poor Salih is that he doesn't believe his powers are Infernal...
Enjoy,
Jarkman
After I read my new book about the Infernal realm and spending some thoughts of potential enemys for the group and the order, I have to admitt, that indeed with this book you can make very damn strong bastards!
First I counted what a mall coven of infernalists with someone who owns the Ceremony Virtue, some innocent sacrifeices a litte aura and poor statistics (method/form/characteristic) can do and after this I pushed their resources in man, vis, aura, sacrifices, demonic assistance, statistics, additional diabolists and the result was frighteing.
Even a small and poor coven would have an immortal leader or a powerful beast in their ranks, many members of the coven would be pushed by Forsaken spells (IMHO the most IMBA duration ever made!) they should ne able to easily gain influence over a whole region of a country only with their Sin powers.
A very strong coven could nearly everything (ok no real combat magic): they should have unbelivable amounts of gold and silver, they should have influence and members even in the highest ranks of mundane society, all high members and powerful fighters would be immortal/unaging/immune to iron/fire/lightning ect all at once, they should have some extremly old members that are summoners and so on.
Only one coven of this power (with 5 or more members that can use Ars Goetica, Cthonic Magic, Maleficia, Devil Child Powers) is a powerful enemy even for 2 or 3 summer covenants at once.
But the thing that kicks asses most are indeed the infernal summoners... I made someone that is 300 years old, have a InfernalMight of 75 (he can absorb non-infernal beeings to push his mght after all) have a 50 might demon bound to him, all characteristics are +5, he can use every hermetic form like Aramalesh (1 point = 2 magnitudes), he is immune to aging, cold, fire, iron, bone, lightning, water and so on (assuming that he is the leader of a coven that casts Forsaken spells on him), can teleport at will and have douzens of other powers, items and abilitys that make him much, much, much more powerfuler than Philipus Niger or simular archmagi...
The only good thing is, that these are only NPCs because a PC summoner shouldnt gain this old during normal play.
Cruzifix: hell truly grants power faster and easier than divine.
And yet, he's just one botched roll from Hell. Although at his level it shouldn't be too difficult to find a sinner to sacrifice ... starting with his fellow diabolists.
With Infernal Might he cant go into Vituperation : /
Serf's Parma. Isn't the requirement to find a sinner's soul for Hell within a season when you fail to cast a Maleficium separate from Vituperation?
Yepp you are right... but THIS char doesnt have any meleficia 
I think it is not so unthinkable, that someone who is 150 years old or older is part or leader of a big infernal cult with someone that can use maleficia. And of course he can also simply trade his demon/spirit binding ability for Forsaken spells/maleficia. 
But remember, that I am also not very happy with this extremly power... I think I would use two new houserules for this:
-
someone with a might score cant use Binding.
-
After a Forsaken spell/maleficia is cast upon someone he gains the effects magnitude warping points and rolls for vituperation.
Lucius,
These are all good points, but keep in mind that a character with an Infernal Might score is basically a demon. Demons can be super-powerful, especially really old demons. This character ranks right up there with other lords of Hell, and will probably be seen as a challenge to their authority. I wouldn't be surprised if the character were hated as much by other demons as the agents of the Divine. Also, there's no going back-- a character with Infernal Might is never going to be forgiven and welcomed back to God. He's joined the infernal hierarchy and must now spend eternity fighting off other demons to hold his status in Hell, not to mention angels and other Divine beings determined to see him utterly destroyed. If he's managed to survive this environment for 300 years, I think he deserves that kind of power.
That said, I think you might be right that a character with a Might Score shouldn't be able to bind another demon to himself. He could bind it to something else and take advantage of it that way, but not to his person, since he's already a demon himself.
Characters with Might cannot ever gain Warping Points, though. I believe the book says that if they have to gain a Warping Point for some reason, they just spend a Might Point. This is because demons are already utterly Infernal; they can't be made more Infernal. Though perhaps Vituperation is what demons experience when they are reduced to a Might Score of 0...
Erik
I had this in mind when I assumed his god-like power (in fact such a char would be more powerful than even the strongest "normal" demon, only the 10 demons like Lilith would be a match for him, perhaps he would even overcome them... but if he is a NPC this is just fine... very fine (I can hear my poor group whine already 
).
I imagine someone like this as the leader of a gigant cult that spread over europe, a perfect enemy for a whole saga, pherhaps for a whole covenant. I have to go back on my working sheet, developing a now story line.
Thanks for the inspiration of these new, cool enemys!
I like this
Ok if I imagine what a good, munchkin-made Merenita after her Becoming Ritual and 200 years of increasing her stats would be... this would be nearly the same. It is just that I always thought of hermetic mages as the ultimate and powerfullest individuals in Ars Magica. But a good summoner now is at the same level if not higher than they.
But I still think the house rules are important... I mean what about a devil child with a spirit bound to him... PÄFF all disadvantages of his fast aging are gone -,-
And the Forsaken duration must have a drawback (ok if he ever becomes a good person... blabla ^^).
Rather than starting a new thread I'll add here...
If you have a demon bound to you how can that be detected? Or more precisely...How can it be detected that it's a demon and not a spirit familiar or something?
I'm assuming that the demon doesn't loose it's ability to confound intelligo spells.
Assuming that they don't kill each other off, they might be able to work together...remember they would probably covet what each has...
Agnar, it can't be detected by hermetic magic.
I assume that there is holy magic that can perform the job, and there is the virtue sense holy/unholy.
Well I guess you can say the same thing about a covenant with a Flambeau, a Criamon, an ex Miscellanea and a Quaesitor. ^^
... IF they dont kill each other they could achieve something big... ^^