Applications of inventive genius - when and when not?

Reading the description of this Virtue in the Core Rules, it is stated to give a +3 bonus when inventing spells, enchanting items and making potions (+6 when experimenting).
Now, I believe the word 'potions' most likely is a left over from 4th ed. Because what was potions back then is now Charged Items. Longevity Potion isn't even an potion anymore, it's Ritual. Mind you, in 4th ed it was also described as being any sort of charm, tatoo etc.

So I assume the definition is really 'inventing spells, enchainting devices and longevity rituals'

  1. What about Familiars? This is really the only other (standard) Lab Activity concerned with making an invention or original work. Other activities using Magic Theory and the Lab - Lab improvements, Vis extraction, investigating enchantments, fixing arcane connection - don't really produce some product.
    1a) And about Familiars, can't you get Lab Assistance for this? I'm asking because Metacreator doesn't have a field or section to add any other bonus to Lab Total. Perhaps this really belongs in a different thread.

  2. Lab assistants. Does Inventive Genius apply here? Does it apply only for the master? For the any and alla ssistants as well? Or just once, regardless of ehich participant has it?
    2a) And that really raises questions about other Hermetic Virtues & Flaws as well. Puissant Art? Since the assistant(s) don't use Art score, it shouldn't apply. But Puissant Magic Theory should, right? What about Waster of vis? I'm thinking most V&Fs only apply for the master.

Any suggestions?

My reading:

Yes it applies to charged items
Not sure on longevity potions... I'll have to think about it.

Doesn't apply to Familiars. This makes sense to me because you're bonding to an already existing creature - so there's not much 'inventing' to be done.

I think assistants for bonding familiars in the lab is ok... it's still a lab process involving hermetic theory, so I imagine there's 'stuff' there that assistants could help with.

My read would be that IG only applies to the lead of a collaborative project or a project with assistants.

I would allow puissant MT help in the lab - if the boost were there because of ordinary experience there wouldn't be a question. I don't think the virtue adds a question in its case.

I'm not sure about WoV, but your right, there are some possibilities there - I'd probably lean toward whatever worked well with the story, although my gut says not to make it apply for an assistant.

I can see it go both ways with the Bond. Sure you aren't inventing something new, but you are still forging the Cords. That ought to count for something. And when instilling familiar powers, that's the same as making a device, so IG should count here.

We've always allowed Inventive Genius to add to all Lab Totals. Not add to Magic Theory, because it doesn't affect the amount of vis you can handle. But any activity dependent on Lab Total gets the bonus.

I think for me, the cord thing is a distinction between a hermetic process that invents something and a hermetic process that doesn't. I think the process of connecting to a familiar is a matter of reconciling and bonding essential natures, which by definition are not 'invented' so much as 'coaxed out'. If it were a more creative process I'd definitely let it apply. My first guide was the text in the virtue description, which noticeably doesn't include all lab activities. So then the question is 'why not?' My answer is that not all activities benefit or require 'inventiveness'. So thinking about the nature of Familiar bonding and the fact that it isn't included in the virtue description, I conclude that this is probably because it is included in those activities that don't necessarily benefit or require 'inventiveness'.

It's one thing to say that about creating and improving the cords, which I agree is particularly not normal and probably shouldn't get the bonus, but how about instilling effects in the bond?.. I mean, it's basically identical to creating effects in an item really. I'd be tempted to allow it for that.. unsure though.

Thinking about it, I think I'm with you in that I'd be tempted to allow the bonus to apply for purposes of instilling effects. While the nature of the magus and creature are constraints, it's still basically a design process.

I allow both assistants and inventive genius to apply here, it is a laboratory activity using magical theory and similar to any other activity.

I apply all virtues which effect labwork, in 4th ed I allowed affinities to add even though the arts did not (Not sure why I allowed it but I always have) so to maintian consistency I would allow Puissant arts to apply in 5th . I have not had a situation where a magus with a relevant flaw has taken part in joint lab work, anything which was not clearly personal and effecting only the magus.

ArM5 states that an assistant may add Inventive genius. No mention about multiple geniuses collaborating. This came up in my saga, 1 genius assisting another. No clear mention of this instance in the rules, and we felt that adding the bonus twice would be too strong (strong creative minds may clash too much to be perfectly in synch), so we house-ruled that the second genius added only +1 rather than +3. Your interpretation depends on your feeling I guess.

Siglorel, do you have a cite that "ArM5 states that an assistant may add Inventive genius."?

Your house rule on second assistants reminds me of my house rule on teaching - I ruled that a student's hubris (HoH-MC) subtracts from teaching totals when being taught in a multiple student setting - the student keeps hogging the converstation. :wink:

page 103, second paragraph, last sentence.
"If the assistant has some appropriate virtue, like Inventive Genius, that Virtue affects the primary researcher's efforts, adding to his scores in the laboratory."

Well that clears it up, I was sure there was some ruling like that, somewhere. And there it is.

I still think this means adding Puissant Magic Theory as well. But if the assistant has a focus or Puissant Art, that's too bad - because he doesn't use his own Art scores. And if he's so clever, perhaps he should be the lead researcher, and not the assistant...

Any cretive lab activity can gain the bonus for Inventive genius, any new creation. A new effect in the Familiar can and thinks like that ever that is original, not investigating (But yes when you are integrating) devices, or copying texts or Opening the Gift. The exception is when you are searching for Insight.
I think taht the proccesss of copying and translating lab text could be used experimentation to search adquire the Hermetic Virtue Magical Memory.

1: Familiar bond, probably no because i agree that its more of a merging process than invention.
Instilling familiar powers, yes because it creates something new.

1a: Very likely yes to lab assistance for bonding. Not 100% certain.

2: Not a chance. Only for the "master".

2a: Puissant art, no. Puissant MT, yes.
Waster of vis, ehm, good question but i would say no or mostly no, maybe make it have a smaller effect than if the person with it was the master of the lab project.

Not a great idea i would say as it then also applies to things like making charged items after the first time, and inventiveness there is completely useless. It becomes almost like an bumped up Puissant Magic Theory. I dont think its terrible but i think it drops the "feel" of this specific virtue.

I make them into two virtues instead, raising IG to +5 bonus and adding Diligent Lab Worker as a general +3 bonus to lab work.

Darn, i´d missed that one... :confused:
But considering that you can manage to have quite a few assistants without too much problems (having a score of 2-5+ in leadership is often a good thing for any magi involved in the running of the covenant anyway so why not), finding assistants with IG makes it rather interesting, as it adds quite alot for an assistant.

Based on the above, oh yes absolutely i would say.

Inventive genius is a very popular virtue as it is. I'd restrict it to the minimum suggested. Otherwise we will see even more inventive wunderkinds.

Really? Everyone i know would pick Affinity with Magic Theory or Puissant MT long before this.

And quite the opposite is seen in my sagas. I would prefer Inventive Genius, but the thread has opened my eyes. If it doesn't apply to all Lab Totals with its +3, it is not better than Puissance's +2. But Experimentation is fun! And another +3 helps.

Which brings up another question I scratched my head about: is there a rule somewhere about maximum number of occupants in a given size of lab? Does Covenants have a rule buried somewhere about it?

It does not make much sense that a whole class of mages can all add their maximum to the labwork in a lab designed for solitary research...
In my saga when this came up we house-ruled that 1 lead + 2 assistants was the practical maximum for a lab that was not specially designed/enlarged. I assume that a small familiar could be added to the lot as well. (We still applied the Leadership limit)

Probably a worthwhile idea for a lab virtue, a minor giving enough good work space for a few assistants.

If there is, i missed it.

man, this rings a faint bell for me too ... it said something about familiars not counting against space limitations ...

No, that part says familiars doesnt count against number of assistants limitations. And that limit is 1+Leadership score IIRC.