Arcane Connection destruction

If you know about an arcane connection to yourself, can your destroy it by casting on yourself or do you need to recover the connection to destroy it?

Does a hoplite have the right to demand a long term arcane connection from someone that is gauntleted as the price of learning Parma?

This just came up in a saga about to start and I think I would turn and walk out as a gauntleted mage to another tribunal or location over a flambeau demanding arcane connection of members of several other houses as price of acceptance in tribunal.

Before I quit the game, I want to know what options I have for destroying power of the connection to me or rights of a mage gauntletted by house.

I imagine that this is a your saga might vary issue, but I think that the sane approach is to say that an Arcane Connection is a separate thing to the object. The RAW do tell us that a severed limb, for example, is no longer a part of the rest of the body.

So, you need to be able to sense the Arcane Connection somehow, and then you need a spell with the appropriate Range to nuke it.

You might count as an Arcane Connection to your Arcane Connections, in which case if all else fails you can cast an Intellego spell at Range Arcane Connection to sense it. But you might not, YSMV.

If that's what the Tribunal says is kosher then it is kosher. Besides, as a freshly gauntleted magus you probably don't know any better (what does your character know of foreign tribunals). And it's likely trivial (and realistic) for your parens to have collected an Arcane Connection from you during your apprenticeship anyway.

If these flambaeu were really on to it, they would then use PeMe magic to delete your memory of the trade before they teach you the Parma.

Anyway, I guess it depends on your saga as to whether this is a good idea or not.

For me, the decider would be whether your characters can interact with this Tribunal practice. I.e. can you refuse, and then the troupe can tell a story about being a Tribunal outcast, or is striving to reclaim the Arcane Connection meant to be a story (like a Tremere trying to get his sigil), etc. And are these stories where the story guide is OK with your actually succeeding; even if he makes it hard, he doesn't keep moving the goalposts to make it impossible.

If it is just been taken from you so that the story-guide can bring out the big-guns with Massive Penetration when the characters get uppity, then I would still think it OK if the troupe can trust the story-guide to use this in a fun way to try to drive stories back to where they are Meant To Be Going.

Basically, I'd talk with the story-guide about what his intentions are for this tribunal rule. And how does this tie into the troupes intentions for the saga and the sorts of stories that you are going to play, .

Is it meant be a way to create fun stories (which is great), is it meant to be a tool for him to prevent players from getting out of hand and so keep focus on the Right Stories for the Saga (again, fine) or is it just a weapon for killer GM time (not so great)?

That's the way I see things, too. Arcane Connections generally aren't two-way. I support that by the fact that the magus-familiar connection is explicitly listed as working both ways.

Some previous forum discussion ("arcane connection two-way"):

By the RAW,

"Something, the connection, is an AC to something else, the target*, if the connection was very closely associated with the target, often by being part of it."

Learned members of these boards have argued persuasively that, in medieval philosophy, the original is not part of the lesser, only vice versa. Thus, an arm is part of the body, but the remaining body is not "part" of the arm.

However, a strong argument can be made that the original body was, indeed, "very closely associated" with the arm. So SG's who want to go the other way can do so without fear of going there without any support.

As RL says, it's another "Your Saga May Vary" situation.

However, the AC is not "Range:Self" - the thing must be destroyed, one way or another, either at Range:Arcane or by recovering it and proceeding accordingly, as the SG/Troupe determine.

(* Oooh, a third different use of the word "target"! wheeee! Where's my lightning bolt?!)

Now, as for the situation in question, I would have to raise my eyebrows (and they do have some bushiness!) at any Tribunal (other than Tremere-dominated) that would require more hoops to be jumped thru after an apprentice passes a gauntlet and pledges to the Oath. They simply have no legal right, imo.

In my view, at that moment, after gauntlet and upon pronouncing the Oath, the apprentice becomes a full-fledged mage, and has no less rights under the Code than the eldest archmage. And while it may be up to the Parens how and when to teach them, if the Parens fails to teach them at the end of apprenticeship, it smells of a crime to me, low tho' it may be. Parma is not specifically guaranteed by the Code, but it is a core part of the Hermetic Order and every mage in it - to deny it is to create "lesser magi", and thus deprive magical power to a full-fledged mage of the Order - which is a clear crime.

(Of course, if, somehow, inexplicably, a Tribunal did decide to go there, the apprentice(s) would have to wait for a Grand Tribunal to convene in order to press their case.)

One thing about Arcane Connections, the guideline of Creo Vim Level 4 that create a Arcan Connection with a demon of Apotropaic Magic in Realms of Power: the Infernal, could be used in others beings, others beings with supernatural or something? Or is better use ReVim like Invisible Tunnel?

Just to show there's no hard feelings (I'm the ST that brought in this story element, it can be found in the PbP game Vengeance Rides a Slow Horse). The spell (as I see it) would be a simple Pe Co

Confound the Connection: 20

Destroys an Arcane Connection made from a piece of your body or excreter.

R: Arcane Connection D: Momentary T: Part

Base 3 (Do superficial damage) R: +4 T: +1

The trick is knowing that there is an Arcane Connection in the first place and possibly piercing the Aegis that it might likely be in.

Simply physically destroying it in a fire would work fine too, and lower level spells would work as well with a range of Touch for example.

Regarding the realism of the request I intend to show that in the story if allowed.

I could see an apprentice earmarked for suspicion of something by a Tribunal, and some special inquiry/investigation - but it is extremely unusual, and, at face value, bends several rules and expectations to the breaking point.

Good luck.

There was a spell exactly like this in the old WGRE, and a PeVi version as well. I myself favor the idea that AC's work both ways. Once a part, always a part. People have made good arguments to the contrary, but others have made arguments just as valid supporting the two-way view. However, regardless of philosophical points of view, the RAW says simply "once a part, always a part". It makes no distinction between larger and smaller parts. The interpretation is up to you.

I knew I remembered that spell from somewhere!

On the contrary, this phrase is not used AFAIK. Furthermore, Arcane Connections fade with time, thus the 'always a part' is not true.

I agree with you that no distinction is made. However, the wording is that a thing "is an ArcaneConnection to something else ... if the connection was very closely associated with the target, often by being a part of it." (ArM5, p84). My finger is part of my body, but my body is not part of my finger.
Thus if you rule that my body is an AC of my finger, it must be due to the "very closely associated" bit rather than the "being a part of it" bit. Thus "once a part, always a part" is not true here either.

I'll desist now :slight_smile: I've already made my position on this issue clear on another thread.


"once a part, always a part" is true. THat doesn't mean that the part would be always an arcane connection, which we know is subject of fading.

And, if your fingers were part of your body, and yes, your body wasn't part of your finger, your body was associated with your fingers.
And "often by being a part" =/= "AC must have been a part"...

So, imo, i think its okay.
But to destroy an AC , i would not use PeCo for all items (for hairs, okay but for other things (because its bigger and so uses bigger magnitudes)), but rather PeVi...

Buuut , my SG is not okay with me :frowning: and he says: no! to the ideas here

I wasn't aware that hoplites had the specific power to make requests of any kind. Aren't they just the martial arm of the Order, something like those kind of requests going toward quesitores in general? Since nobody commented on that aspect, am I missing something?

On a related note, are all arcane connections, even when fixed ones, automatically consumed when used?

Goodness no!
Infact, they are generally not!

Am I the only one thinking "Imagine the fun a demon could have if they get ahold of that collection of arcane connections"?