ArM5: Frozen Castle of Cold Hearts (5-8)

How would you have Param of 3 right after gauntlet?

Good point, I'll change it.

Nice Charm score, plus Venus's Blessing as a man surrounded by women! That may be Curse of Venus in disguise there.

Your lynx is a little off. That should be Cunning, not Intelligence. The rest I'd need to examine with books.

Is it in bad taste that I'm looking at your animal companion and thinking it would be so much more useful dead? :smiling_imp:

Your previous comparison between Item Maintains Concentration (the item effect enhancement) and MtDS (the spell) left out some key text on the part of the former. Namely, it isn't the ability to Concentrate on the item effect to alter it that allows you to end the Concentration, it's the fact that you can undo whatever the item's activation trigger is. You don't Concentrate on the Ring of Invisibility to make yourself not invisible any more; you take off the ring. That sort of thing.

So yes, I suppose you could say I'm applying the rule to the item effect enhancement, but I'm more surprised that the way I usually rule there isn't what most people consider to be RAW...

Right. Changed.

On HoH:S p30 For "Awaken the slumbering corpse " [...] But If if wields a non-magical weapon, , the weapon would bypass MR

Thanks SG. I've seen it played both ways, which is why I asked. I'm fine either way, as long as I know. As for taking off a ring being critical, how do you take off a familiar bond?

Thanks, Bitter. I hadn't seen that. I expect the cut-off is going to be a little strange no matter where it's set. But this will help my minions. :smiling_imp:

My character has a minor goal of creating her own true grave hound (with Magic Might) familiar. That isn't a huge goal but does seem ever so fitting. I'm loving this focus in corpses.

You can't take off a Familiar bond, but effects that maintain their own Concentration naturally fade at sunrise or sunset unless the one who activates the effect concentrates on it for a bit. Given that (Bond?) Maintains Concentration costs 5 levels anyway, it's pretty much the same as increasing the duration from Concentration to Sun, except of course that you can alter the effect by focusing on it. Though that latter bit... May not help, unless you take your Familiar everywhere with you; your choice to do so, of course.

That was my point. As you said, unless the person "concentrates on it for a bit" to turn it off. I'm not trying to change the way you're ruling it as I find your reasons (Harnessed Magic, PeVi) just; I'm just pointing out that consistency there has renewing concentration as allowing the effect to be turned off.

Concentration spells allow you to:

  • turn them off whenever you feel like it (by not concentrating on them anymore)
  • allow you some measure of control over the spell's effects (e.g. moving an object levitated by Unseen Sling wherever you want it moved to) if the spell in question allows it.

Maintaining the Demanding Spell:

  • concentrates so you don't have to!
  • but it allows you to concentrate if you want to manipulate the spell that's being maintained for you (e.g. by moving an object levitated by Unseen Sling wherever you want it moved to).

So the divide is...can you reassert control of a spell (by concentrating) to end its effect? Or does Maintaining the Demanding Spell prohibit you from doing so (because the duration itself has been supplanted by Maintaining the Demanding Spell and therefore removes that option from you).

By a strict reading of the RAW, I'd say that - yes - Maintaining the Demanding Spell prevents you from dispelling the maintained spell like you otherwise would be able to. Though, at the same time, I'd say the RAI / Rules As Intended should let you dispel an effect so maintained. Simply because being able to cancel a spell is an advantage of using concentration duration, and if Maintaining the Demanding Spell removed that (very significant) option from you, it would/should be spelt out explicitly in the text to avoid confusion and make its intention clear.


Since this seems to be ok, I'll flesh her out a bit more. Knowing the Tribunal will be helpful to choose a kind of faerie, area lore, her name and other details, but that can wait. (There are many different kinds of shapeshifters, shapeshifting deities and daemons across ME, from Loki and Leshy to Odin and others.)

Beastie Girl Ex Misc filia Someone
Tradition: Therianthropy (depending on Tribunal, I might get more specific, eg Black Shaman)
Age 40: "What is time to a wolf?" :slight_smile:
Apparent Age 19: SFB and time spent in strange places has had an affect.
Appearance: When shifted, she looks like an animal. In her human form, she looks lithe, lean, limber and luscious. She dresses like a barbarian woman from a lurid paperback novel, if she dresses at all. This a matter of comfort, not principle, and will dress for the weather as needed. Will fill in hair/eyes/etc when we have a Tribunal.
Sex and Gender: Female (in this saga, it might be useful to specify both!)
Personality: +3 Red in Tooth and Claw, +1 Animal Cunning, -2 Socially Graceful, (Fey+Feral)

Per +0 Normal. She can easily get the senses she needs though magic or becoming a suitable creature.
Int +2 Smarter than the average bear. But not smarter than the average maga.
Com -2 Actions speak louder than words.
Pre +1 Not a classic beauty. She is striking, especially when she moves, and is not easily ignored. Animal magnetism?
Str +0 Every bit as strong as a man
Sta +3 She wouldn't have made it past her first day in the wild without astonishing resilience.
Dex +0 Normal.
Qck +0 Normal.

3 **Shapeshifter(magic aligned): Magi of this tradition find or initiate Gifted shapeshifters to learn Hermetic Magic and the deeper mysteries
3 SFB: Faerie type tbd, but something shapeshiftery. Special: Faerie Sympathy: While shapeshifted.
3 Silent + Subtle Magic: 3 minor virtues
1 **Minor Magical Focus: Shapechangers
1 Inoffensive to Animals: Raised by animals! A virtue common to her tradition
3 **Blatant Gift: Opening Arts flawed due to preserving (or initiating) Shapeshifter virtue, magnifying downside. For her, this negative social effect is usually manifest as objectification and abjection classically afforded strong, attractive women who do not know their place or act "appropriately." Literary and historical references abound, both popular and esoteric.
1 Feral Upringing: Raised by animals...
1 Faerie Upbringing: ...and they weren't quite mundane animals
1 Outlaw Leader: No complaints so far from GM, so I proceed. These nefarious rascals are her current shifter animal friends (easiest statted grogses ever!! See below), both male and female. The pack has raised her, but for many years she has been leader due to her superior, human intelligence. Her pack is infamous in various places for their depredations, raiding flocks and villages with impunity, even killing people. Often sought, never found. She not only likes to "keep her hand in," she has to, from time to time, lest her pack be concerned about her leadership. Alas, some might construe this as interference with mundanes...
3 Curse of Venus: Men always take an interest in her, even magi, and she does not want or need that kind of interest, except perhaps for an hour or so, every now and then, when a packmate will not do.
1 Small Frame: She is well conditioned, but as a human, definitely slighter than most men. This does not carry over into animal forms, per RAW.
3 Greater Malediction: Due to subtle but prolonged faerie influence and lack of exposure to human speech, she cannot knowingly tell an out and out lie. She simply cannot. Hovever, just like faeries, her perception and understanding of truth can be idiosyncratic. Also like faeries, the spirit of what is and is not a lie is utterly irrelevant: She is bound by the letter of the rule, not the spirit. This can sometimes work against her. For example, she cannot utter a metaphor, even "innocently." Sometimes she does not even understand them.

Abilities and Arts coming soon. Obviously, many xps in Shapeshifter and Faerie Sympathy. Also leadership, awareness, concentration and athletics. Some Area Lore, because she knows the lay of the land from raiding. Other stuff. Alas, her Arts will not be mighty, so I especially need to consider them carefully.

Spells: Soon.

The Pack:

As I posted a few days ago, I just love the idea of an outlaw band being animals, even special animals. I'm bending two rules here: 1) Technically, a magus cannot take Outlaw Leader; 2) A grog-like character usually should not have a Major virtue or Flaw. But giving them all Shapeshifter simplifies things and even makes them more generic, and the point of the rule is to prevent them from being too important.

Finally, the Shapeshifter rules from the core rulebook and Mystery Cults kind of assume a human base, and weird things can happen if a shifter starts off, say, as a bear. So, for absolute simplicity, I pretend there is a base human form, but this does not actually exist: None of these can assume a human form. All of them have the exact same stats, except for a shapeshifting specialty and corresponding personality trait that persists across all forms.

Base Form:

Characteristics: Int +0 (converting Cunning to Int is more than generous), everything else at +1.
Virtue: Shapeshifter
Flaws: A minor personality flaw corresponding to favored animal, and two more, obviously not including flaws affecting equipment!

Shapeshifter and some knowledge in human form, and a list of animals probably dependent on Tribunal and covenant location. (A wild Bactrian camel is barely possible in the Levant and Novgorod, for example, but not the Greater Alps. A snake for a native of Hibernia feels wrong, and a crocodile anywhere other than the Levant, etc.)

And everything else is based firmly on the standard animals, possibly adding +1 do a characteristic. Quick, easy and useful.

More character background: Probably :slight_smile:



I thought small frame carried over to animal form. Is it just for heartbeasts or smth?

You're correct. And so do the rest, like Curse of Venus and Life-Linked Spontaneous Magic.

I'm in this camp. It is not Harnessed Magic. You have given over the control of the spell to another spell. you could PeVi the MtDS to cut off the other spell.

These are basically the same flaw.

IMHO, either your character was raised with fairies ( even fairy animals) or raised feral. Both have no understanding of human society which is the downside. if you are feral how do you gain Fairy Lore if you have no language? And if you say it is feral fairy lore then really what is that? The skill could be used to deduce the workings of a Fairy Court which a feral creature would have no experience.

Out of curiosity because neither of you included it, how do you (Cannonball and Jebrick) reconcile this with an item maintaining concentration since you say this is RAW?

Item Maintains Concentration:

Yet despite all those things being exactly the same ArM5 explicitly says you can still end the spell. So from what I can tell ArM5 RAW specifically take the interpretation that those quoted things do not prevent canceling of the spell. I would have expected you two to say RAW allows the canceling but RAI do not as opposed to the other way around. That you two agree on the opposite leads me to think you've found something I haven't (like the HoH:S ruling on animated dead wielding mundane weapons).

I hadn't seen it at first, but I believe Jebrick is right. Once you've taken Feral Upbringing, what does Faerie Upbringing do? It does two things:

  1. Raise the level to which you can put experience into Faerie Sympathy.
  2. Allow you to take Faerie Lore before apprenticeship.
    Faerie Upbringing would then seem to be a Virtue as what Jebrick says seems to be true.

(Waiting on a little more setting stuff before choosing a final mundane background. Names included in that.)

Maga was found by two newly gauntleted magi, a Flambeau and a Tytalus from the same small covenant, when she seemed to be only four years old. At that time neither of them was ready to train an apprentice, but they knew having a Gifted youth available was valuable so they secreted her away. As their covenant was very small and kept to themselves, they had little fear anyone would steal her away. To make sure they would also hide her whenever Redcaps visited. Over the years the two argued who should get to train her, but it took many years before they were prepared to open her Arts. In the meantime she learned the ways of the covenant and the Order and grew slowly, seemingly too slowly. Her faerie blood and small frame had made her and kept making her appear younger than she really was. By the time they were ready to train her, she was actually in her 20s.

After years of periodic arguments the comrades, though not friends, agreed to duel each other in Certamen for the right to train her. The loser, however, would get to have her as a lab assistant for several seasons as long as he contributed to her training. With this agreement made they dueled and the Flambeau won. He opened her Arts and trained her in the his school (necromantic part of Schools of Sebastian) and in the ways of his house and the Cult of Mercury, to which he belonged. Her pagan past and being raised within the covenant left her very open to their pagan practices. Between a Titanus and a Flambeau necromancer in a tiny covenant in addition to her own talents, she was also quite open to the what otherwise might be unacceptable practice of necromancy. The Tytalus had other plans in mind beside just training her and getting a lab assistant, though. Late in her apprenticeship he arranged to teach her and have her work in his lab for just over a year. In that time he was sure to father a child with her, using what Mentem magics he needed to keep her docile, quiet, and in his lab. He held up his end of the bargain, teaching her and using her as a lab assistant, but he also got a son he wanted from her. When she was returned to her Flambeau master for the last year of her apprenticeship she was devastated by what had transpired. Her master fought the Tytalus in Certamen again, this time over the partial loss of his lab assistant due to her inability to focus well. In winning he claimed several pawns of Vis for his losses. She spent the last year of her apprenticeship hating both magi and trying to see her baby whenever she could get away from the lab and get past the Tytalus. Once she passed her gauntlet she was kicked out of the covenant to find her own way and to avoid the intense conflict that was sure to arise within the covenant. She, along with a few animals she had animated toward the end of her apprenticeship, was left to fend for herself and find a new home.

Age: 37 (22)

Int +3, Per +2, Str -3, Sta +1, Pre +1, Com +1, Dex 0, Qik +1

Cautious Sorceress [1], Flawless Magic [3], The Gift [free], Hermetic Maga [free], Imbued with the Spirit of Animal [1], Imbued with the Spirit of Corpus [1], Independent Study [1], Minor Magical Focus: Corpses [free], Skilled Parens [free bonus], Strong Faerie Blood: Hades (Faerie Sympathy: Corpses) [3]

Ambitious [-3], Covenant Upbringing [-1], Difficult Spontaneous Magic [-1], Enemy/Dependent (Tytalus/son) [-3], Oversensitive (Slights against women) [-1], Small Frame [-1]

Casting Sigil: Scary/Eerie

Area Lore () 1 [5]
Area Lore () 1 [5]
Artes Liberales () 1 [5]
Athletics (Dancing) 1 [5]
Awareness (Alertness) 2 [15]
Brawl (Daggers) 1 [5]
Charm () 2 [15]
Concentration (Spells) 3 [30]
Dead Language: Latin (Hermetic Usage) 5 [75]
Etiquette (Order of Hermes) 1 [5]
Faerie Sympathy: Corpses 4 [50-5=45]
Finesse (Speed) 1 [5]
Folk Ken () 2 [15]
Intrigue (Order of Hermes) 1 [5]
Living Language: Greek? () 5 [75-75=0]
Magic Lore (Undead) 1 [5]
Magic Theory (Spells) 3 [30]
Organization Lore: Order of Hermes (House Flambeau) 2 [15]
Parma Magica (Vim) 1 [5]
Penetration (Certamen) 1 [5]
Philosophiae (Ceremonial Casting) 1 [5]
Ride (Horses) 1 [5]
Second Sight (Invisible Things) 4 [50-5=45]
Spell Mastery: Chirurgical Cut of Mundane Silence 3 [(31-5)/2=13]
Spell Mastery: Waken the Grave Beast 2 [(15-5)/2=5]
Stealth (Natural Areas) 1 [5]
Swim (Staying Afloat) 1 [5]

Creo 2 [3]
Intellego 4 [10]
Muto 5 [15]
Perdo 1 [1]
Rego 14 [105]
Animal 5 [15]
Corpus 1 [1]
Mentem 3 [6]
Vim 11 [66]

  • Seeing Through the Grave Beast’s Eyes [InAn25]
    R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: (need to double-check ArM5 familiars section)
    By concentrating the caster can sense through the animal corpse. Costed as per the ArM5 bond enchantment to sense through a familiar's senses.
    Mastery 1: Imperturbable Casting
  • Ferocity of the Grave Beast [MuAn25]
    R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: Individual
    As Steed of Vengeance, but made to work on animal corpses up to Size +1. Obviously, no Stamina roll is needed to avoid death afterward.
    Mastery 1: Ceremonial Casting
  • The Unstoppable Grave Beast [ReAn20]
    R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: Individual
    Reduces wound penalties as per Endurance of the Berserkers, but designed for animal corpses up to Size +1.
    Mastery 1: Adaptive Casting
  • Waken the Grave Beast [ReAn(Me)25]
    R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: Individual
    Animates an animal corpse up to Size +1. The animated corpse can be commanded mentally.
    Mastery 2: Ceremonial Casting, Imperturbable Casting
  • Chirurgical Cut of Mundane Silence [PeVi20]
    R: Sight, D: Momentary, T: Individual
    Dispels any effect (as Wind of Mundane Silence) if it can double the effect's level with 20+5+3x3+(stress die)=34+(stress die).
    Mastery 3: Fast Casting, Multiple Casting, Unraveling
  • Prolonging the Demanding Spell [ReVi35]
    R: Touch, D: Moon, T: Individual
    Maintaining the Demanding Spell @ D: Moon for level-25 and lower spells.
    Mastery 1: Imperturbable Casting

Animated corpses: Connemara Pony, Golden Eagle, Eurasian Eagle-Owl, Raches (Running-Hound), 2 Alaunts

Are you talking about items or MtDS? as they are different. The item is a triggered effect. Take the ring off or say the magic word again and the effect ends. MtDS has a duration that the spell lasts. Being able to break that duration is Harnessed Magic virtue.

MtDS states " The spell that requires concentration is automatically maintained for the duration of the spell" meaning that the spell MtDS effects is maintained for it's duration. The concentration spell now does not need to be concentrated on for a diameter. There is nothing in MtDS that says anything about canceling the effect of the initial spell.

Apparently It's time to post things...

Lycurgus Ex Tytalus

    Intelligence	3	
Perception 	1		
Force	        0		
Stamina	2		
Presence	1		
Communication	1		
Dexterity	-3	
Quikness	1		

Self confident Free
Skilled Parens Free
Affinity with Vim Minor Hermetic
Affinity with Rego Minor Hermetic
Major magical focus (Spirits) Major Hermetic
Skilled Parens Minor Hermetic
Second Sight Minor Supernatural
Cautious sorcerer Minor Hermetic
Inoffensive to spirit Minor Hermetic
Hermetic theurgy Minor Mystery

Cabal legacy (Titanoi) Minor hermetic story
Rebellious Minor Perso
Ambicious Major Perso
Restriction (True Faith/Divine Might) Major Hermetic
Exciting experimentation Minor Hermetic
Deleterious circumstances (place without any aura) reasoning is that every aura has its spirit (faery spirit, demons, magic spirit and her magic is fueled by spirits) Minor Hermetic

Breton	5	free	
awareness	3	30	spells
Charm	1	5	first impression
Folk keen	1	5	mage
Guile	1	5	elaborate lies

total 45

later life			
concentration	2	15	spells
Leadership 	1	5	spirits
second sight	4	45	spirits
craft (sculpting)	1	5	arcane connection
lore (order of Hermes)	1	5	House Tytalus (tutor is Kybella agent)

total 75

gauntlet + skilled parens x2 : 360xp			
Latin	4	50	hermetic
artes liberales	1	5	astrology
parma magica	1	5	mentem
magic theory	4	50	inventing spells
code of Hermès	1	5	political intrigue
Finesse	1	5	fast casting
penetration	4	50	vim
Lore (Titanoi)	1	5	Initiation
lore (magic realm)	1	5	spirits

total 180

Arts Rego 15 80 affinity
Vim 15 80 affinity
perdo 4 10
Corporem 4 10
total 180

Spells :

Coerce the Spirit of Magic
ReVi 30 (casting 47 +5 pene )R: Voice, D: Moon +2, T: IndividualLike "Coerce the Spirit of the Flame", this spell gives you control over disembodied spirit from the magic realm, if you can coerce it into submission. The more lurid and dramatic the threats, the more cooperative the spirit is. If the spell penetrates the spirit’s Magic Resistance, make a stress roll of Com + Leadership to see how effective the maga’s threats are. The storyguide should always give a bonus or penalty depending on the potency of the threats, but note that any roll other than a botch compels at least minimal obedience, while increasing rolls indicate a more cooperative spirit.In theory, you could very well have Faerie or Infernal version of this spell. However, Merinita maguses frown over lording it to the faeries, and spells allowing you to control demons are, to say the least, suspicious. As per a Divine version of it, if someone has dared to invent it yet, he hasn't talked about it.(B: 05, R: Voice +2, D: Moon +3, T: Individual)

Summoning the Spirit of Magic
ReVi 40 (casting 47 +5 pene )R: Arc, D: Diam +1, T: IndividualThe Vim version of form-specific summoning spells, this calls a magical spirit if the magus has an Arcane Connection or knows its full name, and overcomes the spirit’s Magic Resistance. (The name can be a non-magical name; it need not be a magical true name or name of power). A fire, pond of water, earth or wind serves as an Arcane Connection to any elemental spirit that resides in the area.Over realm-specific summoning spells face the same problems as control spells above. Arnaud of Jerbiton once tried to summon an archangel through a Divine summoning spell. The end results weren't pretty, and he was destroyed among his lab.(B: 15, R: Arc +4, D: Diam +1, T: Individual)

Circular Ward Against Spirits of Magic ReVi 30 (casting 47 +5 pene )

Wizard’s Sidestep ReIm 10 (casting 17 +4 pene)

Shadow step ReCo 20 (like 7 league stride but up to only 500 paces) (casting 21+ 4pene)

Wizard’s Ward against Weapons (casting 17 +4 pene )
ReTe 25R: Personal, D: Sun, T: IndividualAll attacks made by metal or wooden weapons are automatically repelled, no matter if the caster is aware of them or not. The caster may not be wearing or carrying anything made of metal, or it too flies away from him.(B: 5, R: Personal, D: Sun +2, T: Individual, Metal +2)

PeVi5 Demon’s Eternal Oblivion (21+ 4 pene)

PeVi5 Dreadful Bane of the Fae (21 + 4pene)

PeVi5 Sap the Griffon’s Strength (21+ 4 pene)

ReMe 10 Touch of Falling Feathers (17 +4 pene)
The target rapidly falls into a deep sleep. As the spell has a non-Momentary duration, the target cannot be naturally wakened until either this spell is dispelled, or the duration expires. If the target is asleep either at sunrise or at sunset, then his Parma Magica will go down.
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +1 Diameter)