ArM5: Frozen Castle of Cold Hearts (5-8)

Patience, grasshopper.

And actually, I think I'll say no to the thing with manually breaking the Concetration. When you use Maintain the Demanding Spell, I see it as basically hinging on the Maintaining spell's duration but allowing you to concentrate on the effect to alter it. Unless you have something like Harnessed Magic or good PeVi, you can't just cancel effects you don't want active anymore at your convenience, in my judgment.

Well It took more than 15 days last time just saying...

With familiars ArM5 specifically says if you want to be able to turn a spell off partway through you use D: Concentration and add that the item maintains concentration for you. By your reasoning, you could not turn it off because the item will maintain it until sunset/sunrise. Thus the implicit but not explicit part within ArM5. This item enchantment option is a cheaper and easier way of doing the same thing as putting in a second Maintaining the Demanding Spell effect with a linked trigger; Maintaining the Demanding Spell is the spell version of the same thing.

OK, I found the specifics. It's not just under familiars but the effect modifications in general:

And Maintaining the Demanding Spell:

So in one case you use Hermetic magic to maintain concentration for you, which allows you to take control again and adjust the effect. And in the other case you use Hermetic magic to maintain concentration for you, which allows you to take control again and adjust the effect. The only difference so far is that one is in an item and one is a spell. One explicitly says this allows you to end the spell at will, and the other says nothing explicitly about ending the spell.

Sorry, missed this when responding to Wits.

So, I would assume this means you're applying the same ruling to effects in items as well. Or are you ruling differently on the two? I just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Ok, seems to me you have the right of it, callen.

Here's a mechanical draft - I'll post details on the ex misc tradition and background later.

Lepos ex Miscellanea

Characteristics: Int +3 (Clever), Per +1 (Awake), Pre +3 (Captivating), Com 0, Str -3 (Slender), Sta 0, Dex -2 (Careless), Qik +2 (Breezy)

Size: -1
Age: 33 (33), Height: 150 cm, Weight: 40 kg, Gender: Male
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 0 (0)

Confidence: 1 (3)

Virtues and Flaws:

Free: The Gift, Hermetic Magus, Skilled Parens

From tradition:
Speech With the Silent* [Can convince the spirit of an elementally pure object to give information or move with a Presence + Charm roll against 9. Mystery Cults 69.and 73.] (+3)
Minor Magical Focus (Wind) (+1)
Twilight Prone (-3)

Life Boost (+1)
Puissant Rego (+1)
Puissant Creo (+1)
Venus' Blessing (Bonus: +3 Com and Pre with sexually compatible characters) (+1)
Life-Linked Spontaneous Magic (+3)
Baccalaureus (90/90) (+1)
Boosted Magic (+1)
Personal Vis Source (Auram) [Location: Thunderbolt stones in nest] (+1)

Bound Magic (-1)
Small Frame (-1)
Transvestite [Social: -3 when living as own gender] (-1)
Meddler (-3)
Magical Animal Companion (Eagle, Size: -2, Might: 12) [Size: -2] (-1)
Lycanthrope (Lynx, Soak: +3) (-3)

Personality Traits: Whimsical +1, Gregarious +2, Helpful +2
Reputations: Baccalaureus (Academic) 1

Combat:

Dodge: Init: +2, Attack --, Defense +4, Damage --
Fist: Init: +2, Attack -1, Defense +3, Damage -3
Kick: Init: +1, Attack -1, Defense +2, Damage +0
Soak: 0
Fatigue levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-4), -3 (5-8), -5 (9-12), Incapacitated (13-16), Dead (17+)

Abilities:
Artes Liberales 2 (cermonial magic)
Athletics 1 (running)
Awareness 1 (alertness)
Brawl 1 (Dodge)
Charm 5 (pleading for aid)
Code of Hermes 1 (mundane relations)
Concentration 3 (spell concentration)
Magic Lore 1 (creatures)
Etiquette 1 (nobility)
Finesse 3 (Auram)
Folk Ken 1 (men)
Latin 5 (hermetic usage)
Leadership 2 (inspiration)
Living Language 5 (expansive vocabulary)
Magic Theory 4 (inventing spells)
Order of Hermes Lore 1 (personalities)
Parma Magica 1 (Ignem)
Penetration 1 (Auram)
Philosophiae 1 (ceremonial magic)
Profession: Scribe 1 (copying)

Arts: Cr 10+3, In 5, Mu 5, Pe 5, Re 10+3, An 0, Aq 5, Au 11, Co 3, He 4, Ig 0, Im 5, Me 2, Te 0, Vi 0

Equipment:
Encumbrance: 0 (0)

Spells Known:

Personal Aura of Ennobled Presence (MuIm 5) +10. Personal range version.
Charge of the Angry Winds (CrAu 15) +35 [focus]
Wings of the Soaring Wind (Cr(Re)Au 30) +36, Mastery 1 (fast casting) [Focus]
True Sight of the Air (InAu 15) +16
Whispering Winds (InAu 15) +16
Fog of Concealment (CrAu 10) +24.
As this spell is cast, a thick fog billows from the caster and soon covers an area approximately 300 paces across. It limits visibility to a few meters and dampens sound. The fog remains for a few minutes and may be moved by the wind. )Base 2, +1 Touch, +1 Diam, +1 Unnatural [cast indoors] +1 Size)
Clouds of Rain and Thunder (CrAu 25) +24
Bolt From the Brume (CrAu 20) +25, Mastery 1 (multiple casting).
A lightning bolt strikes at the chosen target from a stormy sky, doing +30 damage. There must be a storm. There cannot be anything between the clouds and the target. Those near the target must make Size stress rolls of 6+ to remain standing. (Base 5, +3 Sight)
Personal Veil of Invisibility (PeIm 15) +10 Personal range version.

As a lynx:
(Stolen from: zapad-na-vostoke.wikidot.com/mundane-lynx )

Cun +3 (norm. +1), Per +1 (norm. 0), Pre +1 (norm. -2), Com -5, Str -1 (norm. +2), Dex +1 [norm. +3), Qck 0 (norm. -2), Sta +2
Soak +7 (norm. 4, +3 from were)
Size -2 (norm. -1)
Fatigue levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, KO
Confidence score 0

Virtues and flaws:
improved characteristics (x2), puissant stealth, reclusive

Qualities:
agressive, ambush predator, camouflage, crafty, hardy, claws, tough hide,

Personality traits:
Brave +1, discrete +2

Combat: [+3 attack if surprise and automatically initiative]
Claws: [to be calculated]

Abilities:
athletics (sprint) 5
awareness (smell) 2
brawl (claws) 5
hunt (reindeer) 4
stealth (ambushing) 4 +2 [+3 hiding when not moving]
survival (cold climates) 5

How would you have Param of 3 right after gauntlet?

Good point, I'll change it.

Nice Charm score, plus Venus's Blessing as a man surrounded by women! That may be Curse of Venus in disguise there.

Your lynx is a little off. That should be Cunning, not Intelligence. The rest I'd need to examine with books.

Is it in bad taste that I'm looking at your animal companion and thinking it would be so much more useful dead? :smiling_imp:

Your previous comparison between Item Maintains Concentration (the item effect enhancement) and MtDS (the spell) left out some key text on the part of the former. Namely, it isn't the ability to Concentrate on the item effect to alter it that allows you to end the Concentration, it's the fact that you can undo whatever the item's activation trigger is. You don't Concentrate on the Ring of Invisibility to make yourself not invisible any more; you take off the ring. That sort of thing.

So yes, I suppose you could say I'm applying the rule to the item effect enhancement, but I'm more surprised that the way I usually rule there isn't what most people consider to be RAW...

Right. Changed.

On HoH:S p30 For "Awaken the slumbering corpse " [...] But If if wields a non-magical weapon, , the weapon would bypass MR

Thanks SG. I've seen it played both ways, which is why I asked. I'm fine either way, as long as I know. As for taking off a ring being critical, how do you take off a familiar bond?

Thanks, Bitter. I hadn't seen that. I expect the cut-off is going to be a little strange no matter where it's set. But this will help my minions. :smiling_imp:

My character has a minor goal of creating her own true grave hound (with Magic Might) familiar. That isn't a huge goal but does seem ever so fitting. I'm loving this focus in corpses.

You can't take off a Familiar bond, but effects that maintain their own Concentration naturally fade at sunrise or sunset unless the one who activates the effect concentrates on it for a bit. Given that (Bond?) Maintains Concentration costs 5 levels anyway, it's pretty much the same as increasing the duration from Concentration to Sun, except of course that you can alter the effect by focusing on it. Though that latter bit... May not help, unless you take your Familiar everywhere with you; your choice to do so, of course.

That was my point. As you said, unless the person "concentrates on it for a bit" to turn it off. I'm not trying to change the way you're ruling it as I find your reasons (Harnessed Magic, PeVi) just; I'm just pointing out that consistency there has renewing concentration as allowing the effect to be turned off.

Concentration spells allow you to:

  • turn them off whenever you feel like it (by not concentrating on them anymore)
  • allow you some measure of control over the spell's effects (e.g. moving an object levitated by Unseen Sling wherever you want it moved to) if the spell in question allows it.

Maintaining the Demanding Spell:

  • concentrates so you don't have to!
  • but it allows you to concentrate if you want to manipulate the spell that's being maintained for you (e.g. by moving an object levitated by Unseen Sling wherever you want it moved to).

So the divide is...can you reassert control of a spell (by concentrating) to end its effect? Or does Maintaining the Demanding Spell prohibit you from doing so (because the duration itself has been supplanted by Maintaining the Demanding Spell and therefore removes that option from you).

By a strict reading of the RAW, I'd say that - yes - Maintaining the Demanding Spell prevents you from dispelling the maintained spell like you otherwise would be able to. Though, at the same time, I'd say the RAI / Rules As Intended should let you dispel an effect so maintained. Simply because being able to cancel a spell is an advantage of using concentration duration, and if Maintaining the Demanding Spell removed that (very significant) option from you, it would/should be spelt out explicitly in the text to avoid confusion and make its intention clear.

Hi,

Since this seems to be ok, I'll flesh her out a bit more. Knowing the Tribunal will be helpful to choose a kind of faerie, area lore, her name and other details, but that can wait. (There are many different kinds of shapeshifters, shapeshifting deities and daemons across ME, from Loki and Leshy to Odin and others.)

Beastie Girl Ex Misc filia Someone
Tradition: Therianthropy (depending on Tribunal, I might get more specific, eg Black Shaman)
Age 40: "What is time to a wolf?" :slight_smile:
Apparent Age 19: SFB and time spent in strange places has had an affect.
Appearance: When shifted, she looks like an animal. In her human form, she looks lithe, lean, limber and luscious. She dresses like a barbarian woman from a lurid paperback novel, if she dresses at all. This a matter of comfort, not principle, and will dress for the weather as needed. Will fill in hair/eyes/etc when we have a Tribunal.
Sex and Gender: Female (in this saga, it might be useful to specify both!)
Personality: +3 Red in Tooth and Claw, +1 Animal Cunning, -2 Socially Graceful, (Fey+Feral)

Per +0 Normal. She can easily get the senses she needs though magic or becoming a suitable creature.
Int +2 Smarter than the average bear. But not smarter than the average maga.
Com -2 Actions speak louder than words.
Pre +1 Not a classic beauty. She is striking, especially when she moves, and is not easily ignored. Animal magnetism?
Str +0 Every bit as strong as a man
Sta +3 She wouldn't have made it past her first day in the wild without astonishing resilience.
Dex +0 Normal.
Qck +0 Normal.

Virtues:
3 **Shapeshifter(magic aligned): Magi of this tradition find or initiate Gifted shapeshifters to learn Hermetic Magic and the deeper mysteries
3 SFB: Faerie type tbd, but something shapeshiftery. Special: Faerie Sympathy: While shapeshifted.
3 LLSM
3 Silent + Subtle Magic: 3 minor virtues
1 **Minor Magical Focus: Shapechangers
1 Inoffensive to Animals: Raised by animals! A virtue common to her tradition
Flaws:
3 **Blatant Gift: Opening Arts flawed due to preserving (or initiating) Shapeshifter virtue, magnifying downside. For her, this negative social effect is usually manifest as objectification and abjection classically afforded strong, attractive women who do not know their place or act "appropriately." Literary and historical references abound, both popular and esoteric.
1 Feral Upringing: Raised by animals...
1 Faerie Upbringing: ...and they weren't quite mundane animals
1 Outlaw Leader: No complaints so far from GM, so I proceed. These nefarious rascals are her current shifter animal friends (easiest statted grogses ever!! See below), both male and female. The pack has raised her, but for many years she has been leader due to her superior, human intelligence. Her pack is infamous in various places for their depredations, raiding flocks and villages with impunity, even killing people. Often sought, never found. She not only likes to "keep her hand in," she has to, from time to time, lest her pack be concerned about her leadership. Alas, some might construe this as interference with mundanes...
3 Curse of Venus: Men always take an interest in her, even magi, and she does not want or need that kind of interest, except perhaps for an hour or so, every now and then, when a packmate will not do.
1 Small Frame: She is well conditioned, but as a human, definitely slighter than most men. This does not carry over into animal forms, per RAW.
3 Greater Malediction: Due to subtle but prolonged faerie influence and lack of exposure to human speech, she cannot knowingly tell an out and out lie. She simply cannot. Hovever, just like faeries, her perception and understanding of truth can be idiosyncratic. Also like faeries, the spirit of what is and is not a lie is utterly irrelevant: She is bound by the letter of the rule, not the spirit. This can sometimes work against her. For example, she cannot utter a metaphor, even "innocently." Sometimes she does not even understand them.

Abilities and Arts coming soon. Obviously, many xps in Shapeshifter and Faerie Sympathy. Also leadership, awareness, concentration and athletics. Some Area Lore, because she knows the lay of the land from raiding. Other stuff. Alas, her Arts will not be mighty, so I especially need to consider them carefully.

Spells: Soon.

The Pack:

As I posted a few days ago, I just love the idea of an outlaw band being animals, even special animals. I'm bending two rules here: 1) Technically, a magus cannot take Outlaw Leader; 2) A grog-like character usually should not have a Major virtue or Flaw. But giving them all Shapeshifter simplifies things and even makes them more generic, and the point of the rule is to prevent them from being too important.

Finally, the Shapeshifter rules from the core rulebook and Mystery Cults kind of assume a human base, and weird things can happen if a shifter starts off, say, as a bear. So, for absolute simplicity, I pretend there is a base human form, but this does not actually exist: None of these can assume a human form. All of them have the exact same stats, except for a shapeshifting specialty and corresponding personality trait that persists across all forms.

Base Form:

Characteristics: Int +0 (converting Cunning to Int is more than generous), everything else at +1.
Virtue: Shapeshifter
Flaws: A minor personality flaw corresponding to favored animal, and two more, obviously not including flaws affecting equipment!

Shapeshifter and some knowledge in human form, and a list of animals probably dependent on Tribunal and covenant location. (A wild Bactrian camel is barely possible in the Levant and Novgorod, for example, but not the Greater Alps. A snake for a native of Hibernia feels wrong, and a crocodile anywhere other than the Levant, etc.)

And everything else is based firmly on the standard animals, possibly adding +1 do a characteristic. Quick, easy and useful.

More character background: Probably :slight_smile:

Anyway,

Ken

I thought small frame carried over to animal form. Is it just for heartbeasts or smth?

You're correct. And so do the rest, like Curse of Venus and Life-Linked Spontaneous Magic.