I'm in this camp. It is not Harnessed Magic. You have given over the control of the spell to another spell. you could PeVi the MtDS to cut off the other spell.
These are basically the same flaw.
IMHO, either your character was raised with fairies ( even fairy animals) or raised feral. Both have no understanding of human society which is the downside. if you are feral how do you gain Fairy Lore if you have no language? And if you say it is feral fairy lore then really what is that? The skill could be used to deduce the workings of a Fairy Court which a feral creature would have no experience.
Out of curiosity because neither of you included it, how do you (Cannonball and Jebrick) reconcile this with an item maintaining concentration since you say this is RAW?
Item Maintains Concentration:
Yet despite all those things being exactly the same ArM5 explicitly says you can still end the spell. So from what I can tell ArM5 RAW specifically take the interpretation that those quoted things do not prevent canceling of the spell. I would have expected you two to say RAW allows the canceling but RAI do not as opposed to the other way around. That you two agree on the opposite leads me to think you've found something I haven't (like the HoH:S ruling on animated dead wielding mundane weapons).
I hadn't seen it at first, but I believe Jebrick is right. Once you've taken Feral Upbringing, what does Faerie Upbringing do? It does two things:
- Raise the level to which you can put experience into Faerie Sympathy.
- Allow you to take Faerie Lore before apprenticeship.
Faerie Upbringing would then seem to be a Virtue as what Jebrick says seems to be true.
(Waiting on a little more setting stuff before choosing a final mundane background. Names included in that.)
Maga was found by two newly gauntleted magi, a Flambeau and a Tytalus from the same small covenant, when she seemed to be only four years old. At that time neither of them was ready to train an apprentice, but they knew having a Gifted youth available was valuable so they secreted her away. As their covenant was very small and kept to themselves, they had little fear anyone would steal her away. To make sure they would also hide her whenever Redcaps visited. Over the years the two argued who should get to train her, but it took many years before they were prepared to open her Arts. In the meantime she learned the ways of the covenant and the Order and grew slowly, seemingly too slowly. Her faerie blood and small frame had made her and kept making her appear younger than she really was. By the time they were ready to train her, she was actually in her 20s.
After years of periodic arguments the comrades, though not friends, agreed to duel each other in Certamen for the right to train her. The loser, however, would get to have her as a lab assistant for several seasons as long as he contributed to her training. With this agreement made they dueled and the Flambeau won. He opened her Arts and trained her in the his school (necromantic part of Schools of Sebastian) and in the ways of his house and the Cult of Mercury, to which he belonged. Her pagan past and being raised within the covenant left her very open to their pagan practices. Between a Titanus and a Flambeau necromancer in a tiny covenant in addition to her own talents, she was also quite open to the what otherwise might be unacceptable practice of necromancy. The Tytalus had other plans in mind beside just training her and getting a lab assistant, though. Late in her apprenticeship he arranged to teach her and have her work in his lab for just over a year. In that time he was sure to father a child with her, using what Mentem magics he needed to keep her docile, quiet, and in his lab. He held up his end of the bargain, teaching her and using her as a lab assistant, but he also got a son he wanted from her. When she was returned to her Flambeau master for the last year of her apprenticeship she was devastated by what had transpired. Her master fought the Tytalus in Certamen again, this time over the partial loss of his lab assistant due to her inability to focus well. In winning he claimed several pawns of Vis for his losses. She spent the last year of her apprenticeship hating both magi and trying to see her baby whenever she could get away from the lab and get past the Tytalus. Once she passed her gauntlet she was kicked out of the covenant to find her own way and to avoid the intense conflict that was sure to arise within the covenant. She, along with a few animals she had animated toward the end of her apprenticeship, was left to fend for herself and find a new home.
Age: 37 (22)
Int +3, Per +2, Str -3, Sta +1, Pre +1, Com +1, Dex 0, Qik +1
Cautious Sorceress [1], Flawless Magic [3], The Gift [free], Hermetic Maga [free], Imbued with the Spirit of Animal [1], Imbued with the Spirit of Corpus [1], Independent Study [1], Minor Magical Focus: Corpses [free], Skilled Parens [free bonus], Strong Faerie Blood: Hades (Faerie Sympathy: Corpses) [3]
Ambitious [-3], Covenant Upbringing [-1], Difficult Spontaneous Magic [-1], Enemy/Dependent (Tytalus/son) [-3], Oversensitive (Slights against women) [-1], Small Frame [-1]
Casting Sigil: Scary/Eerie
Area Lore () 1 [5]
Area Lore () 1 [5]
Artes Liberales () 1 [5]
Athletics (Dancing) 1 [5]
Awareness (Alertness) 2 [15]
Brawl (Daggers) 1 [5]
Charm () 2 [15]
Concentration (Spells) 3 [30]
Dead Language: Latin (Hermetic Usage) 5 [75]
Etiquette (Order of Hermes) 1 [5]
Faerie Sympathy: Corpses 4 [50-5=45]
Finesse (Speed) 1 [5]
Folk Ken () 2 [15]
Intrigue (Order of Hermes) 1 [5]
Living Language: Greek? () 5 [75-75=0]
Magic Lore (Undead) 1 [5]
Magic Theory (Spells) 3 [30]
Organization Lore: Order of Hermes (House Flambeau) 2 [15]
Parma Magica (Vim) 1 [5]
Penetration (Certamen) 1 [5]
Philosophiae (Ceremonial Casting) 1 [5]
Ride (Horses) 1 [5]
Second Sight (Invisible Things) 4 [50-5=45]
Spell Mastery: Chirurgical Cut of Mundane Silence 3 [(31-5)/2=13]
Spell Mastery: Waken the Grave Beast 2 [(15-5)/2=5]
Stealth (Natural Areas) 1 [5]
Swim (Staying Afloat) 1 [5]
Creo 2 [3]
Intellego 4 [10]
Muto 5 [15]
Perdo 1 [1]
Rego 14 [105]
Animal 5 [15]
Corpus 1 [1]
Mentem 3 [6]
Vim 11 [66]
- Seeing Through the Grave Beast’s Eyes [InAn25]
R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: (need to double-check ArM5 familiars section)
By concentrating the caster can sense through the animal corpse. Costed as per the ArM5 bond enchantment to sense through a familiar's senses.
Mastery 1: Imperturbable Casting - Ferocity of the Grave Beast [MuAn25]
R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: Individual
As Steed of Vengeance, but made to work on animal corpses up to Size +1. Obviously, no Stamina roll is needed to avoid death afterward.
Mastery 1: Ceremonial Casting - The Unstoppable Grave Beast [ReAn20]
R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: Individual
Reduces wound penalties as per Endurance of the Berserkers, but designed for animal corpses up to Size +1.
Mastery 1: Adaptive Casting - Waken the Grave Beast [ReAn(Me)25]
R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: Individual
Animates an animal corpse up to Size +1. The animated corpse can be commanded mentally.
Mastery 2: Ceremonial Casting, Imperturbable Casting - Chirurgical Cut of Mundane Silence [PeVi20]
R: Sight, D: Momentary, T: Individual
Dispels any effect (as Wind of Mundane Silence) if it can double the effect's level with 20+5+3x3+(stress die)=34+(stress die).
Mastery 3: Fast Casting, Multiple Casting, Unraveling - Prolonging the Demanding Spell [ReVi35]
R: Touch, D: Moon, T: Individual
Maintaining the Demanding Spell @ D: Moon for level-25 and lower spells.
Mastery 1: Imperturbable Casting
Animated corpses: Connemara Pony, Golden Eagle, Eurasian Eagle-Owl, Raches (Running-Hound), 2 Alaunts
Are you talking about items or MtDS? as they are different. The item is a triggered effect. Take the ring off or say the magic word again and the effect ends. MtDS has a duration that the spell lasts. Being able to break that duration is Harnessed Magic virtue.
MtDS states " The spell that requires concentration is automatically maintained for the duration of the spell" meaning that the spell MtDS effects is maintained for it's duration. The concentration spell now does not need to be concentrated on for a diameter. There is nothing in MtDS that says anything about canceling the effect of the initial spell.
Apparently It's time to post things...
Lycurgus Ex Tytalus
Intelligence 3
Perception 1
Force 0
Stamina 2
Presence 1
Communication 1
Dexterity -3
Quikness 1
virtues
Self confident Free
Skilled Parens Free
Affinity with Vim Minor Hermetic
Affinity with Rego Minor Hermetic
Major magical focus (Spirits) Major Hermetic
Skilled Parens Minor Hermetic
Second Sight Minor Supernatural
Cautious sorcerer Minor Hermetic
Inoffensive to spirit Minor Hermetic
Hermetic theurgy Minor Mystery
Flaws
Cabal legacy (Titanoi) Minor hermetic story
Rebellious Minor Perso
Ambicious Major Perso
Restriction (True Faith/Divine Might) Major Hermetic
Exciting experimentation Minor Hermetic
Deleterious circumstances (place without any aura) reasoning is that every aura has its spirit (faery spirit, demons, magic spirit and her magic is fueled by spirits) Minor Hermetic
childhood
Breton 5 free
awareness 3 30 spells
Charm 1 5 first impression
Folk keen 1 5 mage
Guile 1 5 elaborate lies
total 45
later life
concentration 2 15 spells
Leadership 1 5 spirits
second sight 4 45 spirits
craft (sculpting) 1 5 arcane connection
lore (order of Hermes) 1 5 House Tytalus (tutor is Kybella agent)
total 75
gauntlet + skilled parens x2 : 360xp
Latin 4 50 hermetic
artes liberales 1 5 astrology
parma magica 1 5 mentem
magic theory 4 50 inventing spells
code of Hermès 1 5 political intrigue
Finesse 1 5 fast casting
penetration 4 50 vim
Lore (Titanoi) 1 5 Initiation
lore (magic realm) 1 5 spirits
total 180
Arts Rego 15 80 affinity
Vim 15 80 affinity
perdo 4 10
Corporem 4 10
total 180
Spells :
Coerce the Spirit of Magic
ReVi 30 (casting 47 +5 pene )R: Voice, D: Moon +2, T: IndividualLike "Coerce the Spirit of the Flame", this spell gives you control over disembodied spirit from the magic realm, if you can coerce it into submission. The more lurid and dramatic the threats, the more cooperative the spirit is. If the spell penetrates the spirit’s Magic Resistance, make a stress roll of Com + Leadership to see how effective the maga’s threats are. The storyguide should always give a bonus or penalty depending on the potency of the threats, but note that any roll other than a botch compels at least minimal obedience, while increasing rolls indicate a more cooperative spirit.In theory, you could very well have Faerie or Infernal version of this spell. However, Merinita maguses frown over lording it to the faeries, and spells allowing you to control demons are, to say the least, suspicious. As per a Divine version of it, if someone has dared to invent it yet, he hasn't talked about it.(B: 05, R: Voice +2, D: Moon +3, T: Individual)
Summoning the Spirit of Magic
ReVi 40 (casting 47 +5 pene )R: Arc, D: Diam +1, T: IndividualThe Vim version of form-specific summoning spells, this calls a magical spirit if the magus has an Arcane Connection or knows its full name, and overcomes the spirit’s Magic Resistance. (The name can be a non-magical name; it need not be a magical true name or name of power). A fire, pond of water, earth or wind serves as an Arcane Connection to any elemental spirit that resides in the area.Over realm-specific summoning spells face the same problems as control spells above. Arnaud of Jerbiton once tried to summon an archangel through a Divine summoning spell. The end results weren't pretty, and he was destroyed among his lab.(B: 15, R: Arc +4, D: Diam +1, T: Individual)
Circular Ward Against Spirits of Magic ReVi 30 (casting 47 +5 pene )
Wizard’s Sidestep ReIm 10 (casting 17 +4 pene)
Shadow step ReCo 20 (like 7 league stride but up to only 500 paces) (casting 21+ 4pene)
Wizard’s Ward against Weapons (casting 17 +4 pene )
ReTe 25R: Personal, D: Sun, T: IndividualAll attacks made by metal or wooden weapons are automatically repelled, no matter if the caster is aware of them or not. The caster may not be wearing or carrying anything made of metal, or it too flies away from him.(B: 5, R: Personal, D: Sun +2, T: Individual, Metal +2)
PeVi5 Demon’s Eternal Oblivion (21+ 4 pene)
PeVi5 Dreadful Bane of the Fae (21 + 4pene)
PeVi5 Sap the Griffon’s Strength (21+ 4 pene)
ReMe 10 Touch of Falling Feathers (17 +4 pene)
The target rapidly falls into a deep sleep. As the spell has a non-Momentary duration, the target cannot be naturally wakened until either this spell is dispelled, or the duration expires. If the target is asleep either at sunrise or at sunset, then his Parma Magica will go down.
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +1 Diameter)
Edited:
This works for me to distinguish it from the spell and thus as a viable semi-argument to use if a troupe decides to rule them differently as we are.
While it works for me, I really don't see it successfully making the argument for RAW. If that's it, why can we not just turn on and off a D: Sun effect? It's triggered, too, and if turning off a D: Sun thing can just be part of the trigger, why is it necessary to use D: Concentration? Thus to accept that this is the distinction via RAW also requires we accept that RAW contradicts itself. Accepting that the underlying spell beneath Maintaining the Demanding Spell can be ended, thus effectively terminating Maintaining the Demanding Spell does not contain this rules contradiction. It simply becomes a spell without a viable target and fails like all other spells do under those conditions.
I wouldn't try to go this route for an explanation. The item maintaining concentration has a duration of Sun. Thus this would favor the other interpretation.
Hey, Ovarwa. Bear in mind the covenant structure here. It may be slightly difficult for me to make prevalent use of Curse of Venus, but with a healthy dose of outside visitors to the covenant and you hopefully encountering outsiders while prowling about outside the covenant, I can manage it. Your help is necessary, but I can do it. Objectification as a Blatant Gift symptom is really entirely inappropriate, though; pretty much nobody in the covenant will ever "objetify" you to an unusual degree, even if they hate your Gift, because everybody there is either a woman opposed to woman-hate, a magus with Parma who will ignore your Gift, or a slave/lower-class citizen who really couldn't hate you more since women are already their enslavers. Also, I agree that Feral and Faerie Upbringing don't really work as Flaws in tandem in my opinion, though I'd let you have the effects of both as one Flaw since it seems pretty concept-critical.
Will review more stuff later.
You seem to be mixing item and spell rules. Which one is it? If it is an item then you can turn it off by turning off the trigger.
as to the bolded...RAW states that the magus hands over the concentration spell to the ReVi effect of MtDS. By doing so the magus no longer has control over the concentration duration spell. Because the Magus no longer is concentrating on the spell they can no longer end it by not concentrating because they are not in control. That is why RAW says the spell keeps going whether the magus concentrates or not. The spell lasts for the length of MtDS ( which is diameter by RAW)
No, really, I'm not mixing them. As I've been pointing out, that the issue within ArM5 is implicitly that concentration itself can actively turn off D: Concentration, not just passive loss or giving up of concentration. This is seen in the item creation section. Once this is established and it is noted that you can resume control of your D: Concentration spell running under Maintain the Demanding spell, it is seen that the RAW shows you can turn the spell under Maintaining the Demanding spell off even if that isn't RAI.
No, you cannot just turn any item on and off by using the trigger. It must be D: Concentration to do this. While perhaps not explicit, this is stated and shown multiple times in the books. Thus the question of why one D: Sun thing (maintains concentration) can be turned off by a normal trigger and not another (any spell with D: Sun) arises, showing the bit of contradiction that must occur if this is the case.
The reverse question to why use D: Concentration plus maintenance for a spell that doesn't vary if D: Sun can be turned off has been seen on the boards: why anyone would use D: Sun then if the cost is the same. What was successfully argued (don't remember by whom) was that there is only one effect being maintained when doing the D: Concentration plus maintenance route. So, if you want several shields to be enhanced for instance, you could do that with several uses of D: Sun. Many uses of D: Concentration plus maintenance would allow shields to gain and lose the effect, but only one at a time. Therein lies the advantage of D: Sun. There is a trade-off between being able to turn it on/off and being able to run multiple copies simultaneously.
No, Maintaining the Demanding Spell actually completely disagrees with that. It states the magus may resume concentration on the spell to make changes, not that the magus no longer has control. Since the magus can resume concentration and control the spell (example given within the spell itself), I don't see how an argument on not being able to control the spell fits RAW at all.
The RAI issue is why I like SG's statement of reasoning. If we take RAI to preserve more value in Harnessed Magic and PeVi, then we say RAI would be to disallow turning off the maintained spell even if RAW implies otherwise.
The others do, but neither Small Frame or Large carry over. Like yesterday, I don't have a book handy atm, but this is explicitly called out in MC, iirc, (and I'm pretty sure I do.) I'll check again when I'm near books.
They are both minor personality flaws, not general flaws. The primary effect of each is the effect on personality, and each effect is different, even though they can combine into a coherent whole. Feral makes a character more animalistic, and adds some problems and benefits to that. FU also has an extreme effect on personality, and it is a different effect, also with some pluses and minuses tacked on.
It isn't that a feral character has no understanding of human society, but that his understanding of society and inter-"personal" interaction is colored by his experiences in the wild, which leads to certain kinds of problems. It isn't that a character with faerie upbringing has no understanding of human society, but that his understanding of society and relationships is a wildly distorted parody viewed through the lens of faerie rules. Each colors personality in different ways. Each causes its own set of problems. Both can be categorized as "doesn't get human society," just as a character who is both lustful and wrathful "has problems controlling passion" (even though a different character might be lustful and carefree, or wrathful and reckless), and just as a character who is both feral and wrathful "is doubly vicious so you gotta drop one" (even though a different character might be feral and fearful because he was raised by rabbits, or wrathful and meddlesome.)
Anyway,
Ken
Hmm. My intention with Blatant Gift is that it cause the exact same problems -- the same -6, the same kind of social reaction -- but that if people were to think about why they were reacting as they are, they would believe and say thing that sound like abjection and objectification. So the examples in the core rules of what Blatant Gift does in various situations would probably go down the same way. The innkeeper would probably turn her away, but would talk about running a clean establishment and try to run her out of town; the monks would also make sure does not set foot on their grounds flaunting her sin. (Of course, if any of them were of an impious inclination, they might feign friendliness to lure her in, and then try to take advantage of her because she clearly wants it and has it coming.) I'm quite fine if the Blatant Gift has all the other symptoms too.
As for Feral and Faerie, I responded to that issue before seeing your post, explaining how I see them as different. Since both are integral to the concept, maybe they really are different, as I suggest? If you still disagree, I'll defer to your preference.
Finally, regarding CoV, I can change this to Faerie Heritage if you prefer. It is probably obvious that I am deliberately embracing a well-known set of tropes, cliched, hackneyed, even offensive (in our day.) CoV works as a request to have story elements that correspond to those tropes; Faerie Heritage will do the job too.
Anyway,
Ken
A good, complementary set of virtues. I hope you can make the theurgy+MMF:spirits thing shine. I'm also curious how you get 2 free virtues rather than 1.
Actually, it's the opposite:
So, since it says explicitly that a Flaw that changes Size will affect the animal in this case and that all applicable Flaws from the human form should apply, it certainly seems like Small Frame will cross over. Could you have been remembering the Mystery of the Epitome, which gets rid of this issue?
Yes, but what's the line before "However?"
I remember that, but notably large or small does not necessarily mean that the difference is sufficient to change size. I remember a line somewhere in there that explicitly says not to alter size.
Finally, if the animal form is >+1 (boar, bear, horse, etc.) or <-4, even that sentence doesn't apply.
I'm pretty sure that an antecedent to "However...." says explicitly don't change the size.
Skilled parens is given freely by generous SG for all players.
Oooh! Thanks.
It's the thing that saves you from double-counting your Flaw. Without that you would to the following:
Size -1 human -> subtract 1 from the animal's Size
Small Frame -> transfer to animal, subtracting 1 from the animal's Size
Thankfully, they caught the issue when it comes to Size. Unfortunately, they did not catch the issue in some other places. For example, if you take Improved Characteristics and use it in such a way as to improve Characteristics that would improve your animal form, Improved Characteristics should end up being double-counted according to the rules, giving you and extra Virtue for free.
No, it says your human Size doesn't change the animal Size, not that your Virtues and Flaws don't, avoiding the double-counting I explained above.