Ash Gild & The Code

[Vortigern]

On the subject of the Ash Gild, the following is stated:

@GoTR

This gild, lead by Philippus Niger of Durenmar, believes that magi should seek dominion over their lands, that the Order of Hermes
should be more forthright in its dealings with mundanes, that magi should not need to hide in the wildernesses, and that the Order of Odin
should be combated and destroyed. This last item is not publicly admitted to, but is the prime focus of most of the gild’s older members. The Eschengilde attracts aggressive magi, especially from Houses Flambeau, Tremere, and Tytalus, and while being magically powerful, is not large enough to force their agenda, which skirts on the very edge of the Code of Hermes.

What precisely is 'more forthright' intended to mean?

Aside from that I'm curious how the desire of this Gild for Magi to have 'dominion over their lands' is likely viewed by the Code?

Relevant Code Blurb:

@ArM5

I will not endanger the Order through my actions. Nor will I interfere with the affairs of mundanes and thereby bring ruin on my sodales.

This as ever still leaves a lot of ambiguity, obviously, as to what could/would be considered interference... and logically seems something that would come down to who had more votes in Tribunal.

Yet, really, if a covenant that originally was the classical fortress on a hill far away from mundane society built itself up into a proper city with a population etc... what would the reaction be? If they remained independent of the local nobility? I seem to recall reading about Magvillus existing in such a state of defiance, only the matter having become an accepted fact over time.

How much more greatly would trade and economics in general complicate the matter under the view of the Code?

Given this or a state of affairs much like it is the stated goal of a Gild, how difficult do you think it would be to achieve in play without being marched?

How could the Gild be pursuing this goal without being in risk of being marched or banned as an organization etc?

[BoXer]

@Vortigern

On the subject of the Ash Gild, the following is stated:

@GoTR

This gild, lead by Philippus Niger of Durenmar, believes that magi should seek dominion over their lands, that the Order of Hermes
should be more forthright in its dealings with mundanes, that magi should not need to hide in the wildernesses, and that the Order of Odin
should be combated and destroyed. This last item is not publicly admitted to, but is the prime focus of most of the gild’s older members. The Eschengilde attracts aggressive magi, especially from Houses Flambeau, Tremere, and Tytalus, and while being magically powerful, is not large enough to force their agenda, which skirts on the very edge of the Code of Hermes.

What precisely is 'more forthright' intended to mean?

More forthright means "more out in the open, straightforward, direct". This as opposed to the subtleties which must be observed under the present 1220 generally accepted interpretation of the "non-interference" clause of the Code.

@Vortigern

Aside from that I'm curious how the desire of this Gild for Magi to have 'dominion over their lands' is likely viewed by the Code?

Relevant Code Blurb:

@ArM5

I will not endanger the Order through my actions. Nor will I interfere with the affairs of mundanes and thereby bring ruin on my sodales.

This as ever still leaves a lot of ambiguity, obviously, as to what could/would be considered interference... and logically seems something that would come down to who had more votes in Tribunal.

Yet, really, if a covenant that originally was the classical fortress on a hill far away from mundane society built itself up into a proper city with a population etc... what would the reaction be? If they remained independent of the local nobility? I seem to recall reading about Magvillus existing in such a state of defiance, only the matter having become an accepted fact over time.

How much more greatly would trade and economics in general complicate the matter under the view of the Code?

Given this or a state of affairs much like it is the stated goal of a Gild, how difficult do you think it would be to achieve in play without being marched?

How could the Gild be pursuing this goal without being in risk of being marched or banned as an organization etc?

Generally I think the Gilds are just a means of facilitating the SG in directing the political aspects of his/her story. The suggestions you raise from the canon only provide the underlying motivations, not the concrete actions undertaken by any of these magi at any given time.

Insofar as they (as a Gild) aspire to certain political ends does not mean that they act openly in accordance with their particular ideological manifesto as presented. I would presume that given their canonical "lack of political power" their actions remain covert for the most part, which is why they have not as yet been marched. Should an SG wish to do so, in conjunction with the desires of his/her troupe, he/she could easily make this a prominent focus of the story and let it play itself out either to the aforesaid march or to some set of conditions which allow for that Gild's agenda to gain wider acceptance in the Tribunal and thus change the outward face of the Order as a whole or only within the Rhine Tribunal (which then provides seeds for inter-Tribunal conflict resolvable either by mass wizard war between two or more Tribunals or ultimately by vote at the Grand Tribunal.

Heck it could even give rise to similar conditions that precipitated the Schism War.

[Cuchulainshound]

So many questions!
(and thanks for the citation - having the the original language right at hand helps a lot!)

I'll take the cowards way out, and address the general topic.

A lot depends on how you run your Saga, whether the Order is a Big Secret, or just another of Mythic Europe's colorful collections of oddballs, well known across the land.

It seems that, given the Guild's premise, that the assumption is that the Order is trying to keep a "low profile". Secrecy over power, etc.

As interpreted, magi or covenants cannot be "the lords" of their land. To do so would be to enter into mundane politics - land ownership ~is~ politics, in this period - and that's strictly verbotten!

As it stands, the peripheral code limits the magi to "not getting caught" - the guild, it would seem, wants that reinterpreted, to allow for 'good neighbors" in the open. A fine line, but one that, in theory, should be treadable. That is, it's fine to "interfere", if you're doing it all above board and on a mundane level, or so (tho' ymmv with that last).

The difference is being a group of weirdos, OR a group of weirdos with a false front, vs being a group of powerful wizards ~with~ a widespread Order to back them up. There are always some small percentage of ignorant, unreasonable reactionaries who might interpret that the wrong way, if you moved in next door, and start thinking that "The Order" could pose a threat to them.

Sheesh, as if.

[Furion_Transsanus]

Personally I see the Order to be pluralistic enough, given that it really is an organisation with wide boundaries (which also enabled it in the first place), that discussing something or even working for a change without being persecuted for intent only. Many questions - and possible story hooks - could arise from this theme.

First of all, what are the legal possibilities? Some theorist and scolars of Hermetic Law would make the claim that the Code cannot be changed... Why? Because it was drafted and resoluted by the First Tribunal and that Tribunal does not exist anymore (recalling that the Grand Tribunal is not the First Tribunal)! Now, of course in real term power, no organisation will last long that disengages itself from being able to change its constituent clauses (even if they shouldnt want it done to easily either). It would either lead to making it lip service or make the organisation collaps if it develops to far from its base - in that light a change might be eased inini spite of legality. Now this is only a minor detail but I think it's quite intruiging!

Secondly if a group of magi start to jockey toward making this change - even if within the Code as it is (that is not breaking the Code but trying to change it legally) - then it is very plausible that other countervailing groups would spring up to counter them. Then the question is what will these opposing groups do to outmanouvre each other and what lengths will they go to...? Then toss in that both sides to an issue like the magi-mundane relations probably wouldnt just be two sides... Several different approaches would arise on both sides of the equilibrum - and the more of an escalation of the issue the more would different interests come (or grow) to light.

If pursuing this issue in a campaing (our troupe actually at the last regional Tribunal took part in sending the question of vis resources and magi-mundane relations onward to the upcoming Grand Tribunal...), I'd also make sure to toss in two more interesting concepts. The inter-Guernici conflict between Traditionalists and Transitionalists. And the notion that maybe the Code's ban on interfering with mundanes can be approach from several angles. Some would say it is because they simply don't want a war with the mundanes - either because they'd rather spent their time on something else or because they don't think that the Order could win such a conflict (YMMV on that - I'm not sure what I think on that) or simply that they for various normative reasons dont want such a war. But there is also another intriguing approach - what if the non-interference wasn't as much to protect the Order against mundane hostilities as to protect the Order from internal strife. To a certain degree the non-interference seriously limits the odds that magi will build up a powerbase involving mundane armies... Just imagine how unviable an Order of magi would be if internal conflict involved thousands upon thousands of people? Under normal terms the conflict arbitration through Wizard's War is somewhat uneventful (in the greater scheme of things), but soon it could end up with the fielding of armies, immense casulties and all the other nastiness following in the wake of battles or outright wars...! Hell would seldom find greater cause for rejoicing!

[Agnar]

I seem to recall reading about Magvillus existing in such a state of defiance, only the matter having become an accepted fact over time.

Consider this.....Being the main location for house gurneicus may also play a big part in this acceptance. Who is there that can press charges if all the lawers/judges are corrupt? Would you dare press charges if it ment every action would come under intense scrutiny from said lawers?

eg: tribunal 1284. mage 1 "We call on Sam house Jerbitron regarding charges of interfering with mundanes by magevillus."
mage 2 "Unfortunatly Sam was found to consorting with demons and was marched last spring, here is a written record of the evidence for those interested"

[PlanetNiles]

@Agnar

Consider this.....Being the main location for house gurneicus may also play a big part in this acceptance. Who is there that can press charges if all the lawers/judges are corrupt? Would you dare press charges if it ment every action would come under intense scrutiny from said lawers?

Well actually Magvillus has catagorically kept itself from interfering with the mundanes...

@True Lineages

The presence of such a fortress has of course been noted by the local nobility. However, as its masters have taken no part in local politics since the structure’s miraculous appearance four hundred years ago, they now pay it no mind. In the past, messengers were sent to the site with demands of suzerainty. All received the same reply; come and take it if you can. From Charlemagne on, no noble has yet been ill-advised enough to try.

Remember that, to mundane eyes, Magvillus is an impregnable fortress apparently carved from solid granite; You might as well try to besiege a mountain.