Hi, anyone aware of any canon rule about attacking a mage's Parma? If there is nothing I suspect this might be a minor breakthrough - it's not like attacking a supernatural being's might.
Doesnt the skill of Penetration kinda cover the concept of overcoming a mages Parma?
I think he means directly damaging the Parma.
This can be done with Wind of Mundane Silence.
There's also an item designed for this purpose in MoH.
As Tellus says you can dispell it with Winds of Mundane Silence and similar effects; obviously said effects need to Penetrate.
You can also use ReMe to control him to suppress his Parma, assuming that you can Penetrate with the ReMe effect. You can also try social engineering to convince him mundanely (and therefore without needing Penetration) that it is a Good Idea to lower his Parma.
Also if you can arrange for the magus to be unconscious at dawn/dusk then his Parma will expire too.
No canon examples of spells/effects that specifically target parma beyond the magic item in MoH.
Parma is fairly well established as part of the standard Hermetic arsenal. For myself, I'd allow a PeVi spell 'unravelling the Parma' - using the same formula that the other unravelling the fabric of spells use, but treating the parma as a spell of level (parma ability x 5). Spell must also penetrate, of course. I wouldn't allow it as a side-effect of 'unravelling the fabric of vim' - since Parma is a 'non-hermetic' effect in that regard.
So not a special mystery, just a unique spell.
I'd also expect some serious political fallout. The Parma is recognised as one of the core things that keeps the Order together. Developing a spell especially designed to attack the Parma may well be interpreted by many Quaesitors as an attack on the Order itself. We all know where that goes...
... into some fun stories! Yay!
Edit: because I made a boo-boo.
Um, no. Wind of Mundane Silence, PeVi general spell, page 161 ArM5.
"If the spell penetrates, and its level + the stress die is double Parma Magica x5, then this spell dispels the Parma Magica."
Darnit! That's what I get for editing text and not doublechecking...
... should read 'no canon examples of spell effects that specifically target parma...'
Mmm-hmm. A good reason to master WoMS and take the magic resistance ability.
well it needs to both penetrate and double your parma *5 on a roll of level + stress die so it isn't at all an easy thing to do. MoH shows that a parma dropper spell that functions analogously to unraveling the fabric of (form) is possible. I think that for a spell like that to work you'd need a way to sense the parma in order to satisfy the law of arcane connections. This isn't too tough but it still complicates maters (WoMS gets around the issue by not targeting an individual).
I'd be more afraid of a rego mentem spell compelling the target to suppress their parma. It seems easier to pull off.
I think that sensing the magus who owns the Parma is probably sufficient.
Thanks - that's very helpful. WoMS indicates that it CAN be done but is difficult. Why no one has invented a more specific spell is doubtless because it is considered "poor form" and frowned on by the Qs (who probably have a version themselves).
I have a spell as my Flambeau as follows
It's a reformat of Wind of mundane silence
Pe/Vi GEN V/M/I
If this spell penetrates then it will drop any parma less then the (Level + 10 + D10)/5.
So if a level 10 spell penetrates then it will drop any parma less then 20+D10 (so 4 or less maybe 5 possibly even 6).
Where does the level + 10 + dice come from? In Winds, it's (level + dice) => Parma x 10
Essentially seems to be slipping in a cheeky +10 And ignoring the Parma x10
Level in the guidelines is the level of the guideline, not the level of the spell. It isn't written very clearly. When you alter the spell parameters you don't also get bonuses to the guideline. That's what's going on with the +10 and similar. The guidelines are +4 magnitudes. So with Wind of Mundane Silence, for example, you are using a guideline of level X, then increasing the level by 4 magnitudes for Voice and Room, resulting in a level that matches the guideline + 4 magnitudes. So the spell then refers to its own level, which is easier in the end.
The x10 vs. x5 is just moving the /2 across the equals sign.
Chris- I still don't see where the +10 comes from - it's not in either Winds or the PeVi guidelines- though it would come under dispelling a specific magical effect, but that seems easier as you dispel as it looks like Success = PeVi level + d10.
Presumably the level of the Parma isn't the skill number (1-10) but rather skill x 5?
Yes, it's in both the specific effects and the general effects guidelines.
- We're using a spell specifically targeting Parma Magica, so there's no divide by 2 in the guideline.
- Guideline level + 4 magnitudes + die. Let's choose a guideline of level 30 so it affects 30 + 4 x 5 + die = 50 + die.
- R: Voice adds 2 magnitudes. So the new level is 30 + 2 x 5 = 40.
- D: Momentary and T: Individual add no magnitudes.
So in the end we have a level 40 spell that affects level 50 + die. 50 + die = 40 + 10 + die. This is against Parma Magica x5. The only difference if we make it general is that we have a divide by 2 in the guideline so it's against Parma Magica x 10, but the spell is still 40 + 10 + die.
That doesn't sound right as it makes it trivially easy to dispel an equivalent mages Parma. I don't see how the Order avoided instant death strikes if all you had to do was dispel Parma followed by a killer spell. Whoever got surprise would always kill their equivalent rival.
Perception of Parma is also interesting - to dispel an Individual Parma, would you first need to perceive it with a InVi spell that detected Active magics?
You must be misunderstanding a couple things. Let me clarify:
- This is a level 40 spell. You need to penetrate with it. If you do so, you need to follow it up with a killer spell. Compare that to another level 40 spell with which you penetrate. Is the Parma Magica dropper really so much better? It is if you're great at PeVi and not PeCo, for example, but in general?
- If you're really worried, invent this spell and master it for Resistance.
- As a general rule it is relatively trivial to blast through Parma Magica. Just spend a little bit of time in the lab to make a charged item ring or something similar with immense penetration. Parma Magica adds some safety, but not so much as the Code itself. Parma Magica adds more safety against non-Hermetic stuff than it does against Hermetic stuff.
The interactions of charged items and item expiry with penetration is a bit of a bug that I think any right minded person would fix for a game. Outside of those two exploits, penetrating parma isn't "trivially easy" most magi are going to be able to do it in their better form and technique combinations, but the word trivial should no longer be appropriate.
No, if I'm doing the math right, a level 10 dispel spell will burn through Parma of 4 with ease, every time.