Lastest in my list on "converting from 4th edition" : Authorities.

Since they were introduced in Wizards Grim, I've thought they are a great and important part of medieval-ness (if I can be allowed the word... I hate "paradigm") of the game. Unfortunately, with the new study rules, they don't work anymore. I am completely without ideas as to what kind of rules to use for them. Has anyone thought of anything.

Well the bible is presented in RoP: Divine as a level 10 quality 3 summa on Theology and a level 3 quality 3 summa on church lore.

I thik high level low quality summas are going to be the way that they are presented in fifth edition.

I supose that you could tweak them to be level 999 quality 3 and get that 4th edtion feeling.

Does [color=darkblue]Hildegard of Bingen (page122 , GotF) count as an Authority in 5th Ed?
Such as there are Authorities anyway.

Her original works are listed as having [color=darkblue]Quality of 13.

Liber Divinorum Operum
Book of Divine Works (Summa)
Philosophiae (Metaphysics) 02
Theology 05

Causae et Curae (Summa)
Philosophiae (Natural Philosophy) 02
Medicine 03

I'm just listing the Summae (?)
The rest of the books are Tractatus (whatever the plural is).

I've tried to find a solution when converting my saga from ArM4 to ArM5, and finally dropped them altogether.

Hm... I didn't bother to look at RoP:Divine. I was disappointed enough with the poor quality of True Lineages that I didn't feel it to worthwhile.

Another black mark against 5th edition, IMO. Pitty.

Edit: Which is not to say I dislike 5th edition. It just managed to not include many of the things I really liked from 4th edition, which I find very disappointing.

Do you mind expanding on that? Just curious, as I'm reading True Lineages right now and it seems a servicable, though not brilliant, book. Certainly not "low quality" so far.

LoL, hijacking my own post to criticize an Ars Magica supplement on the publishers own message board... I really shouldn't post when I'm tired. :slight_smile:

... but since you asked. IMO, True Lineages suffers from several problems.

Firstly, at most significantly, it lacks unity. Each section is writen by a different author, which is fine... but each section is written in a very different style, with different formats, organizations and even philosophies. That is nota necessary outcome of four different authors... I've written enough colaborative papers to know that. It would not have been difficult to give everyone a basic style outline and then have someone edit the material to ensure it formed a cohesive whole.

Secondly, I don't feel it captures the tone of Mythic Europe well. A lot of it seems to be written applying modern systems and structures to the setting. The Bonisagus scholarly journals for example... I'll admit I'm not a medieval historian but I'm pretty sure the peer reviewed academic journal was not around in the 13th century.

Thirdly, I don't like sudden changes in canon. I'm not talking about the Tremere... they desperately need it... but the other sections changed things in ways I did not like. The Transitionalist Quaesitors going from liberal reformers to Big Brother. Mercere loan sharks? I don't think any of that was necessary.

Finally, and I've said this in another post, I don't like having to buy several supplements to get basic information. The old Houses of Hermes did a fine job putting all the Houses in one book... why do we need to buy three books (two of which are no-where in the anounced schedule) to do the same job. There is a reason I don't play D&D: The Game of a Thousand Splatbooks. I really don't want to see ArsM go down that road.

Now, being more awake than I was, I hope this doesn't come off as pure negativity. There are things in True Lineages that I liked. I especially like the reimagining of House Tremere which has been in need of a face-lift since the early days of Vampire. I just think that the product could have been done better and more compactly, so as to include all the Houses.

We actually had the Bible as infinite level and low quality-- 3 or 4. The only problem I've had with that is deciding how long it would take to copy.

I would say, the same length of time it took for ArsM4 Authorities... but I just realized ArsM4 doesn't give times to copy Authorities. :slight_smile:

A sudden bright idea...

Authorities have a quality, like other texts. They can be studied any number of times. However, all Authorities are Incomprehensive. Anyone trying to learn from them must halve their study total.

This makes Authorities desireable texts, but difficult to learn from, even for characters with Book Learner or the like.

Toss in that their quality might be quite low, especially for heavily illuminated texts, and Authorities become quite limited in their unlimited usefullness.

Given that I'm the grump that usually shuns house rules I have to say...

I actually like that idea.

Why would a heavily Illuminated Text lower the Quality of the work?
Without checking 4th Ed , i thought it gave a bonus for Illumination.

Beauty can obscure truth.

In ArsM4, Wizards Grim, some illumination can give a bonus but extreme illumination is a penalty to physical quality...

Have you ever seen the Book of Kells? It's considered one of the most beautifully illuminated Bibles ever made... possibly one of the most beautifull books ever made. It is, however, almost completely unintelligible.

There actually are a few words about authorities in the 5th edition core rulebook. Check page 63, in the blurb about academic abilities.

Rather than the infinitely profound, if arcane, sources of knowledge of the 4th edition, they seem to be presented as foundational texts, establishing a framework for the knowledge in question to be developed.

As such, I will argue that they should actually be low-level, high-quality summae -- precisely the opposite of 4th edition authorities. Possibly of just a high enough level to enable you to write a tractatus on the topic.

Sorry, I've read Aristotle. There is nothing "low level/high quality" about his Metaphysics. It's actually enough to tempt me to throw in the addition restriction that you need at least X level in an Ability/Art to gain any benefit from an Authority.

I've always thought on Authorities as low-level low-quality Summa. They only outline the foundation, not the higher-level disputations. And they are certainly so obscure that they should be low-quality.
I could see requiring Authorities in order to Practice an academic Ability, perhaps with some Kabbalah-like rules for joint disputation. Not sure how well that will work, especially in 5e.
I never liked the 4e Authorities rules.

Definition of "Authority" from the OED online:

The way I like autorities is as follow:

Level: Infinite
Quality: Your rank - 5

Quality 4. The rationale was that a season spent reading the Bible would essentially get you practice XP in Theology or Church Lore.

Would the Bible not vary in Quality?
There would be a vast difference between the copy the Pope has
and that of some small village church , surely.

Do the original copies of the Gospels exist anywhere?
Yes , they would a tad Holy Reliced , but what quality do they have?