I'm quite new to the online community, despite having been playing the game for almost ten years (not a lot compared to some of you, but it is still quite a bit of time) and I just wanted to say I find the whole discussion in the berklist very silly.
People are of course free to dislike any aspect from any books or, in fact, any products they buy or that is advertised for them; but no one has a right to treat other people in less than polite terms, or bash them simply because of a need to rant.
If you do not like any aspect of the game, and it is guaranteed this will happen at some point, you are quite free to simply disregard it, and even stop buying the products.
While I don't agree or like everything published for Ars Magica, I fully support the writers in their arguments here in regards to the subject of complaints and rants, and I think the people who started this flame should take a sit back, breath deeply, and realize this is is a hobby. It is supposed to help you relief the stress of day to day activities and have fun. If you cannot, due to whatever reason, and are instead bringing more stress and tension into your life, then I strongly suggest you re-evaluate your choice of a hobby and perhaps consider a different route.
I am shocked, horrified and disgusted by the level of abuse related here. I was considering signing up to the Berklist but I've reconsidered.
Having worked in customer services (although here in the UK) I can confirm that there is no "right to abuse". Indeed if someone raises their voice to you you have every right to have them expelled by security. If the 'security' of the berklist is unable or unwilling to do that then escort yourself away.
It's not as bad as all that. It is just that one recent thread really got out of hand with the poster in question choosing not to accept that his actions were inappropriate. It's very easy to say "oh, it's only an email so you're not allowed to be offended by anything I say" but it doesn't make it true.
Manners are manners, whether face to face or otherwise.
In the end the poster concerned did see what other people were getting at and did apologise.
I would say it's quite a bit more than one recent thread; I wouldn't have unsubscribed over one isolated incident.
However, as one who just chose to unsubscribe from the Berk List, I am not exactly an impartial observer. I would encourage Ars Magica fans to try it out for themselves.
Apologies. I'm not generally active on the list which is why I found it such a culture shock.
I think the list does serve a purpose and there have been some interesting things flick by, but I personally don't like the idea that "email = suspension of manners" typified by that one thread in particular. I think that's the thing that blights it.
Mark, I went off in a huff into lurkerville a while before Andrew's thread. I don't think he's an isolated example. I'm worn out by the Berklist too. I can't claim to have been a model citizen there, but either I've grown up or its grown worse and I can't deal with it any longer.
I would agree with your call for people to see for themselves, but I'd like to suggest that they -lurk- for the first week or two. Just to make sure they don't arrive during the middle of one of the semi-regular flamefests.
I feel kind of liberated, though. No more worrying when a book comes out which line I'll have to defend. No more making an open offer to Michael that I'll take him on about the quality of my research on any fact, any where, any time.
I may just have time to write books and play PBeMs and stuff. Like a normal gamer. Weird, but very cool.
HA! I've been trying to unsubscribe, but with my password PeMe'd quite effectively I havent been able to. Yet. But CJ I just wanted to let you know I had a great laugh from your last satirical musing!
This is the main reason I don't participate on the Berk List. I was a member back in 1993-1996, and left because of the constant flame wars. I re-joined after Ancient Magic came out, mainly because David said that I had been mentioned on the list.
It lasted about a week because one of the people on the list wrote essentially that you shouldn't write books for Ars Magica unless you have a PhD in history. I know lots of PhDs, and no offense to any on this board, but outside of their narrow area of expertise, they don't know any more than the average amateur in their field.
If I have history in my writing, it's taken from books written by PhDs. I don't care at all that the latest historical theory discredits some interpretation or not. If I include something, it's because I think it will make for an interesting story.
Anyway, if you're getting your history from an Ars Magica book...I don't even know where to begin with how stupid that is.
Of course, you can use history in game books for the game, that's the point. Don't let history get in the way of a good story though. Also remember that events are open to multiple interpretations and just because X was true in one area doesn't mean that it was true in any other area.
The problem often arises when someone says, "You state widgets are available in someplaces in 1220, but I read in Smith's book that they aren't available in Italy until 1240. You're wrong, you're destroying my game, and you did this because you're evil/an idiot."
There are lots of problems with this: (1) who cares about +/- 20 years? (2) just because Smith says it doesn't mean that ten other historians don't say something else; (3) one counter-example doesn't negate the statement that widgets were available elsewhere; (4) nothing in a book can "destroy" anyone's game, if you don't like it don't use it; and (5) once you start attacking an author, you are wasting everyone's time. If you do it on this board, you go on my ignore list.
The list is unresponsive to incoming mail since at least 2007-12-23. The mail server states that there is "a local problem", and defers all incoming messages. The web interface, and thus the ability to verify the archives, was available during the last two days, but seems to have fallen back into oblivion since yesterday night.
