bible study?

what would happen if the magi studied the bible?

They'd gain a basic understanding of Theology and Dominion Lore.

Any mystical secrets in the bible will be locked away in a form unreadable by mere magi. Unless the magi seek out the keys to those secrets in ancient and forgotten scrolls, or hidden within the Vaticans vaults.

don't forget the hidden books of the bible of course!

Isn't that the core of the Hermetic Mystery Arts Notoria?

I was talking if the bibligorapha, silly.

As per RoP:D , pg. 86: "The Bible - Summa, Theology (level 10, Quality 3), Summa, Church Lore (Level 3, Quality 3) has a low quality, not because it is badly written, but because it is not designed as a textbook."

EDIT - add in a good scribe/binding/illustrator, and you can get that up to Quality 6. You might be able to gloss the text (modern Study bibles have this - copious notes along the side or at the bottom) for another +1, although this may or may not be considered heresy. I don't know if Resonances work with holy texts, but I don't see why they shouldn't, as long as it's material from a Divine aura. (But that might just be a Magic thing.)

Along these lines, what is the form and material bonus be for the bible?

There isn't one, as no magus has undertaken the attempt to determine it.

That said, if one did, I'd be prepared to bet on a mixture of effects, varying from "Compelling the truth" to "healing" to "Harming demons" all being suitable for it. It IS the holy book, as far as AM5 is concerned.

I do believe that "trolling magi" and "confusing mortals" should be in there as well.

I can see it as a summae on theology, but church lore? Most church lore was established afterwards.

what do you mena "trolling magi"?!?!?!?

Actually, Acts of the Apostles, and the following Letters (Not just those of St Paul). are almost the first written descriptions on how the earliest church were taken form.
Acts discusses the rules for gentiles and shows the very first enclave meeting of the Christians and how they dealt with important theological problems. Also it shows how the Christian cult moves away from the temple and with the help of St Paul's letters shows the forming of House Churches and a more functioning hierarchy than just having the Council of the Apostles by adding positions as Deacons and bishops.

Apart from one or two other texts, the Bible is the first written lore of the history of the church and how it functions.


Perhaps at low levels, but you have a millennia of development from that point, a lot of it influenced by Roman politics more than the bible.

Organization Lore also covers history, so it's definitely justified I'd say. (Also remember: It's not a good source.)

If I am not wrong, from 392 where the Bible was compiled to the Early 13th century, the Church (western part of it) lived very much after the Bible and the way that Paul had help form. Add to this the early church fathers (St Augustine among others) and the Didache, and you have the textbook in how the Church worked.

Remember, the Bible is a terrible source. Unless you have book learner it is no better than practice.

(Although with the new rules for large simplified libraries in Transforming it makes a great start to a theology library.)

Yes, this is the critical thing.

The 13th century church, as an institution, is not really organised in the way that the church is described in the bible. However, the 13th century church is derived from the bible, so it does tell you something --- just not very much, and potentially out-of-date. And the bible is (part of) what the church "believes" --- so that tells you something about why the church is organised the way it is.

For example, bishops are an important element of how the 13th century church is organised and 1 Timothy 3:2, says that "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;". And that is pretty much all that bible has to say about bishops. It does tell you something, but nothing about how a bishop is elected, or what his administrative powers are, for example, and it is also misleading as (because clergy are nominally celibate) most bishops in fact have no wife. On the other hand it does tell you that a drunkard should be ineligible to be a bishop.

There are many different ArM5 Abilities to determine the qualification, election procedure, ordination and function of a bishop at a given place and time in Mythic Europe, though.
Civil and Canon Law, Theology and the Organization Lore of the lands in question (HRE Lore, France Lore, etc.) are as important, or more so, than general Church Lore here. Even Dominion Lore plays a role when determining a bishop's influence on the Auras of his diocese.
Church Lore is indeed rather providing the general bearings.