Thanks for looking over the stuff I posted and commenting on it. I was pretty certain I left something important out when I typed that up. Best not to type up the stuff I planed to post at 2:00AM in the morning again and go back and edit and changes text. with out triple checking everything. I've commented and typed in additions and stuff that I needed to I might repeat one or two things again in certain spots.
I do wish Daedalus had gotten around to making the Nexus PDF I saw references in some old new group discussions that the Nexus rules would have been available as a free PDF at one point. The PDF version would have had some corrections to it from what I read. I haven't seen anyone make a PDF of them either. I'd buy a PDF or another print version of the rules in an instant if Atlas or some one were to reissue it. Could just direct you to that instead of having to retype section from it
You are correct a 250g stick of TNT does 16 damage in Nexus. Nexus has a chart to help with working out damage of explosives that is practically identical to the one you posted that shows the explosive size in grams with the bonus to damage. I just typed up the rule Nexus gives, and didn't reproduce the chart as it was repetitive.
Most special effects can be handled with a schtick as you pointed out, when the rules don't cover them. Also, a great way to make to make some very interesting grenades.
Eagle Eye as you pointed out could be used to make some sort of armor defeating explosive.
For explosives that cause Fragmentation Eagle Eye isn't going to work, as the Fragmenting Explosive is only getting a damage bonus if you don't have armor on designed to stop the fragments. (See the stuff I typed bellow on Armor and Damage.) Just giving it a +1 or +2 damage increase might be the best way to handle it. Why +1 instead of 2. The weakest armor in FS will give a +1 to Tgh. The same Armor in Nexus is supposed to stop the +2 frag damage. So if it is just 1 the FS will stop the bonus added for fragments and let the rest be taken as damage..
Gun Schticks can easily be adapted to grenade use.
A Grenadier schtick could be one to deal with the negative DMs grenades give if that is being used.
Lightning Reload could be applied to grenades. At Level 3 you always have one to throw something to throw.
Another schtick option could be to apply Versatile Ammo, from Thorns of the Lotus to grenades. At level 1 you never run out of grenades, at level 2 you always have access to specialty grenades. A flash one, a smoke one, a tear gas grenade, one that blasts out stick stuff to immobilize your opponents, a sonic one, etc.
The grenade range DM like you suggested is best handled as an option. While working on my reply I looked at how range in Nexus and FS works, and typed up the comparisons too.
For some more of a look on damage I typed this up and some stuff on some other things that need additional clarification or comment..
I wasn't clear I think in explaining the difference in a Damage Value (DV) from 3G and Damage in Nexus and FS. 3G gives all weapons a Damage Value, this is not the same as a Damage and Penetration Rating in Nexus and FS, you then have to plug in formulas on a scientific calculator to get what that the DV translates to in the game system your converting the data over to. A DV for a 3G handgun is based on Muzzle Energy and projectile diameter. The formula to get the Penetration in Nexus is not using the same DV to generate the Nexus Damage of it, the barrel diameter has been factored out of the 3G DV before applying the conversion. For FS you would take the Nexus stats, drop the Pen and reduce the Nexus Damage you got by 1 according to the conversion notes in 3G. I've always used the 3G conversion rules when making guns as I've seen other FS players use it and it gives accurate stats. (After looking at the gun comparison charts I typed bellow, I'm not entirely sure if the decrease damage by 1 in FS needs to be applied at all times. I can see how it may have been gotten at by looking at the Damage charts for both games.)
The exact formula 3G uses is bellow along with some sample 3G DVs for average weapons of a type of caliber.
Nexus Damage (or Penetration) = log3G3DV x 8.5 (round nearest)
3G3 (DV Nexus) DV Example
14 (10) 7.65mm pistol
18 (11) 9mm pistol
23 (12 ).357 Magnum pistol
30 (13) .44 Magnum pistol
51 (15) 5.56mm rifle
67 (16) 7.62mm rifle
88 (17) Elephant rifle
115 (18) Heavy machine gun
151 (19)20mm cannon
To get the 3G DV with projectile damage factored out so you can get a Nexus Pen do this.
1.) Determine barrel diameter of the gun (Example my gun has a 9mm barrel diameter. Important gun geek note, just cause the bullet is listed in its name as being being a certain diameter isn't always the case as you would think. Check a good reloading chart or the actual gun's real world data.)
2.) Convert it to cm if it isn't in it. (Example continued: 9/10= 0.9)
3.) Square this number. round Factions to the nearest 0.000 (Example this gets 0.949 when I round off the faction to something workable. Technically, you can round closer but I always do it to the nearest 0.000.)
4.) Multiply the DV by this number. Round to nearest. This is the DV without projectile diameter factored in.(Example continued: my gun has a 3G DV of 18. When I multiply 18 by 0.949 and round it I end up with a 17.)
Quick Calculation Note: In More Guns they have a chart of various bullets in mm given with the mod you need to multiply DV by so you don't have to do some of these calculations of steps 2 and 3 if the bullet is given it .
5.) Plug in the conversion formula used for damage now to get the Pen. (Example: doing this gets me a 10)
Remember 3G DV vary as it is taking into account amount of powder in the bullet tech level of the powder, barrel length, etc. So a 9mm can have a a different DV depending on the gun in question.
If by some chance you get a higher than a 13 in the Dam or Pen conversion. Only go past that number with the GMs permission according to the rules in 3G. The .460 Magnum Weatherby Mk. V. from More Guns is one of those that exceeds 13 when you plug the numbers in. (Nexus Dam/Pen of 16/16 if the GM allows it)
3G uses an Explosive DV for 1 gram of explosive. Explosive Damage Values in 3G are indicated by an "E" after the DV. 1/2 of a 3G Explosion DV for 1 gram of a 3G explosive = 1gram Nexus Base damage for that type of explosive.
One of the problem with 3G is that it is trying to give a consistent formula for the damage it gives weapons, while FS and Nexus aren't entirely consistent and both aren't worried about things like muzzle energy, quality of the powder used, etc..
Also, the conversion rules in 3G were written before Golden Comeback and several other books came out, so the existing conversion rules need an update to take the stuff in them into account. I might send BTRC an email asking if an updated version of the conversion rules exist or if they have any other advice they can recommend.
When you look at the sample guns and caliber damage ratings given in Nexus they are identical in a few cases to FS ones, higher than what they are in FS in some cases, and in others lower.
Nexus has a firearms chart that gives this generic weapon data for some generic guns. I'm not reproducing the entire chart just the firearms list from Nexus just some basic type and Dam /Pen stuff for a few guns. Note the only actual gun with a specific name mention is the CAWS. (A big gun damage error or inconsistency that no one has spotted to my knowledge came out of me looking closely at this.)
In Nexus you have:
Light (.38) 9/11
Medium (9mm/.45) 10/12
Heavy (.357) 11/12
Very/Heavy (.44) 12/11
Massive (.50, 13.1) 13/13
Medium (5.56mm) 12/14
Heavy (7.62mm) 12/15
20 gauge 11/9
12 gauge 13/10
10 gauge 14/11
CAWS, 12 ga auto 13/10
For FS the chart on 139 Atlas edition gives:
small handgun (.22) 8
medium handgun (.38) 9
big handgun (9mm/.45) 10
really big handgun (.357/.44) 11
BFG (.50) 12
hunting shotgun 10
combat shotgun 13
medium rifle (5.56mm) 13
heavy rifle (7.62) 13
Some of the ones that look like will match don't when you check the write ups for specific weapons in the FS rules. The Ingram-M11, a 9mm (.380ACP), in Golden Comeback is listed as doing 9 damage. (GC forgets to mention that 32 round clips exist for the M-11 it in addition to the 16 round ones. Really need to just fix those firearms in FS) Yet a 9mm Mini Uzi in the FS Atlas rules is list as 10. If you look at the 9mm guns in GC they aren't all doing the same damage and some of the ones that have lower values really shouldn't. FS is not consistent for some reason with no logical reason at all given to why. So is a 9mm supposed to be 9 or 10 damage? Hmmm, is there something were missing that is obvious as to why were seeing inconsistencies with gun damage? (Hint: Reread this paragraph again and look at the charts again.)
A problem with using the FS chart and it is on the Nexus one too, that might explain the damage inconsistency, you may not spot right away when you remember that .380ACP is a 9mm round. .38 S&W is a 9mm round. A 9mm Mackarov is technically a 9.2mm round (Threw the Mackarov one in to show why you want to check the actual bullet diameter when dealing with firearm stats.) I can call the exact same M-11 a .380, a .38, or a 9mm and those are all correct designations for that caliber. Those charts were what was used to make the specific guns found in both games. (I'm going to end up at some point just redoing all the guns in FS and in GC at some time.)
Forgot something on my quick mention of the Nexus armor that is important. They also have an IR (Impact Resistance) in addition to a Penetration Resistance (PR) so you need to know what type of attack it is to know what is being absorbed by the armor. I did remember to mention that Nexus uses 2 basic types of attacks types, penetrating and impact. All the sample weapons in Nexus are only given Damage and Penetration ratings.
A Light Ballistic Nylon Vest in Nexus is PR: 11 IR:6. Ballistic Nylon is treated as having a PR of 3 lower than listed if the attack is from blades, lasers, or arrows. Hard Leather Armor is PR:9 IR:9. Yep, PR and IR values don't have to be equal in a type of armor.
What I was trying to point out, but failed to as I forgot to mention IR was the depending on exactly what the Armor is made off determines if the fragments of a fragmentation grenade will damage a character and the absorption of blast damage can vary and isn't consistent.. The Nylon vest is going to prevent the fragments from adding to the damage a character takes, but they are still going to take explosive blast damage. The Hard Leather armor won't stop the a fragmentation grenades fragments, but it can be a better armor, especially if you use an optional Nexus damage rule on non-penetrating damage. When you have armor giving a bonus to Tgh the exact material it is made up of isn't important and FS deliberately makes the wearing of Armor an unattractive option.
More Nexus armor stuff that needs to be mentioned. Some Damage rules are covered in this as well. You'll quickly see why FS did away with most of this.
Even if an attack penetrates armor the armor absorbs some of the damage.
Excess Penetration (Damage Mod due to Armor Absorption)
Excess Impact (Damage Mod due to Armor Absorption)
Glancing Blows- In Nexus if a Task Check out come is 0 or 1 it is considered glancing and has its Pen reduced by 3. Additional the WP Mod for Outcome can't exceed is 1/2. (In Nexus the final WPs you take from an attack is multiplied by a number based on Outcome, see what I typed bellow on this.)
If your Outcome is 15 or more you bypass the armor completely, if it isn't seamless oh has any weak areas.
Some Armors are designed to make the attacks cause glancing blows. They reduce the the Outcomes of attacks that hit by 1 or 2 to reflect this.
Nexus has an optional rule that handles Impact Damage From Penetrating Attacks. So even though though a bullet didn't penetrate armor the target can still take impact damage from it. It only lets you do this for certain Penetrating Attack. Explosives are one of them I'm not going to type up this rule as it is about half a page in length and it is optional. Game play slows down when you use it.
Indirect Damage - They have this rule buried in the Nexus book and I didn't even see it till today, it isn't in the explosive rules section. (The Nexus book is poorly organized, it does have an index though.) Nexus makes you roll 1D6 and add that to the based damage of an indirect attack. This rule could be ported to FS or just be ignored. Using it will slow down game play and add to the lethality of explosives.
Outcomes in Nexus don't add to the damage of an attack but instead give you a Damage multiplier of an attack.
The Mods are:
Outcome (WP Mod)
6 (1 1/2)
You can take fractional Wound Points in Nexus.
The number of WPs you can take in Nexus before having to worry about a Death Save is 5. When you take into account that you are going to be using armor and your WPs taken are getting Modified by a multiplier based on Outcome. It isn't as bad as it first looks. (You can in Nexus spend character advantage points to increase when you have to worry a Death Save. Nexus uses a point based generation system to make characters.)
So your having to do this in Nexus in regards to damage basically. (If your using the impact dam from pen rule it goes a lot slower)
1.) Determine if Armor stop it, and if it doesn't how much it reduces it by to get the damage before moving to step 2.
2.) If your attack did penetrate armor and will inflict damage. Take the damage that will be taken sub tract Tgh from it to get the base wound points taken.
3.) Modify the base wound points by the wound point multiplier based on out come. The result is how many WPs the character takes.
Why did they drop the Pen rules and change this stuff in FS?
A few idea are:
1.) The way armor and penetration works in Nexus slows down combat. Getting rid of those systems and just making armor give a Tgh bonus, and in some cases an Agl makes for a quicker combat system.
2.) Action heroes don't wear armor and FS is written to make you not want to wear it.
3.) Nexus is slow for other reasons aside those listed in 1, as your having to multiply damage, keep track of factional damage, etc. By making the changes FS does combat is seeded up and is more fun to play out. you can make Nexus even slower with all sorts of optional rules.
Thanks for posting the FS range chart it made me go check the Nexus one and is why I typed this range comparison up. The charts bellow are for ranged weapons. In a grenade's case they are used in determining if the grenade lands in the area you intended it to. The DM mods are to hit your target or target area. For every negative Point you miss the Check by in Nexus the grenade deviates that many meters from the target. as was mention in my last post. The rules for how a missed grenade throw works in FS are in the Throwing Stuff section on page 142, Atlas edition.
Nexus Range Chart
Description (Range in meters) (DM)
Point Blank (5m) (0 DM)
Close (10m) (+2 DM)
Short (20m) (+4 DM)
Medium (40m) (+6 DM)
Long (80m) (+8 DM)
each doubling of range after 80m doubles the DM
Nexus Range Chart Modified For Grenades (base DMs are doubled)
Point Blank (5m) (0 DM)
Close (10m) (+4 DM)
Short (20m) (+8 DM)
Medium (40m) (+12DM)
Long (80m) (+16 DM)
each doubling of range after 80m doubles the DM of the previous range
FS Range Chart
Short (20m) (0 DM)
Medium (40m) (+2 DM)
Long (80m) (+4 DM)
Extreme (160m) (+14 DM)
each doubling of range after 160m doubles the DM
In Nexus the grenade throw DM can also be applied to other weapons that have a short range or are considered inaccurate.
I honestly don't like the range rules in Nexus and FS as you end up with pistols that shoot as far as high powered rifles.
Golden Comeback tries to remedy that a little by giving some guns the distinction of being called snipper rifles and saying certain weapons give a -3 penalty if less than 10m, as the weapon is meant for long range, and that the DM for them at all other are halved. but this rule doesn't work when you really start digging at ballistics data. Unfortunately GC gives no guidelines on how it derived at this.
3G tries handle this in Nexus and in FS with an optional rule that makes a a new weapon stat called Range Class. This is a plus or negative number that you add to the DM for range when using a certain weapon, that if when added to the DM for range can never make it greater than 0. To try and add some variety to take into account the type of weapon being fired and if it is accurate or not for the type it is.
If your in the blast radius of an explosion you can't avoid the damage the way Nexus has the rules written. I don't see any mechanic letting you avoid the damage from blast in FS or Nexus either if your caught in it.. All you can do is hope you can handle the damage . Grenades are bad news. A mechanic to let you take reduced damage could be made.
Moving onto another weapon topic is some heavy weapons are going to be unusable due to things like recoil and weight.
One optional Nexus Rule that FS doesn't use except for some weapons is a Strength Requirement (Str req.). In Nexus every point of Strength you are bellow it you get an AV penalty equal to it. Nexus doesn't give any formula on how to determine it just lists it for the sample weapons.
3G does give two formula to work this from the 3G DV of a weapon.. When using 3G you calculate it using both methods and use the one that gives the highest Strength requirement.
FS handles the Str req. it just says if your not strong enough you can't fire it end of discussion. Certain schitcks could let you use it if your Sr wasn't high enough.
The Missile Launcher in GW has one of 11.
Frustrating thing about the Missile Launcher is it is listed a (23**/-/1000). The description of it says the target take 23 damage and anyone around them takes 12 Damage. It doesn't specify any where just how big an area around the target is that takes that damage, You'll se something else bad about these stats in a second too.
Now 66mm (LAW) from Nexus is:
66mm (LAW) Dam: 22 Pen: 25 Str req. 4
In SNF we have the Woodchuck 70mm Missile from SNF is listed as (25/3/1). You only need a Str of 8 to use it unless you get help bracing it. The description says that if your within 10m of the blast you take 12 damage.
I feel like just tossing my FS books and copy of Nexus as nothing seems to be consistent. Why would I ever want a Missile Launcher from GW a LAW is much easier to use and the damage is just about the same. The Woodchuck out performs the GW one too.
More Guns has M72 LAW (66mm) in it I'm getting a Nexus Dam of 23 when I punch in the 3G conversion notes I have if I'm correct in applying it. Strength Req. wise I'm getting a 4 when I use the 3G rules calculation rules for that. The Pen is coming out to 30 but I think I'm doing something wrong with conversion of it. The Pen might just be 23. (If I send BTRC an email I'm going to ask for some help on that conversion.)
A Stinger Missile Launcher from More Guns is coming out to a Str of 5 with 3G. (Didn't bother with the other stats)
Those 2056 weapons are heavy and not as good as the old contemporary juncture ones it looks like.
The Missile Launcher in GW and SNF need some modification. I can see the Woodchuck with a Str req. of 5 or 6, because it is and a little bigger re-loadable and warheads are big enough that you can put a guidance system on them. The GW one needs a major damage upgrade to it to justify that high of a Str or your using a real bad explosive and propelent for the missile.
Now I'm curious if all the other heavy weapons in Nexus are going to mesh with FS or be just as buggy.
Using explosives weapons against vehicles is I suspecting going to be another can of worms too. Not going to look at that tonight.
I've said way too much and I'm tired. Thanks again for the comments.