Why couldn't Gentle Gift be both a supernatural virtue and a Hermatic virtue?
It can very easily be both. It would have started as a "naturally" occurring Supernatural Virtue, and then converted to a Hermetic Virtue by means of the Breakthrough system, which, after all, is the point of "Hermetic Magic", just like Familiars went from something for a select few to universal for Magi (save for those who deliberately Sacrifice it, of course), just like Twilight became something for every Magi, and, of course, just like Parma Magica was incorporated into Hermetic Theory, creating the Order of Hermes. So, in canon, Gentle Gift is a Hermetic Virtue which, like all Hermetic Virtues, can be taught to Hermetic Mages without the Arts getting in the way (Mind, Parma Magica, Penetration, Finesse, and other Supernatural Skills still count......) and still exists as a Supernatural Virtue that randomly blesses some. But you can make a very clean house rule that the Gentle Gift is a Supernatural Virtue that is so common to the Order that it is confused with a Hermetic Virtue.
It's a Hermetic Virtue because it requires The Gift to take. Remember that non-magi with The Gift can take some Hermetic Virtues.
I thought a Hermatic virtue had been reconciled with Magic Theory. That is why we can add new Hermatic virtues that are now Hedge Traditions.
Nope.
Some Hermetic virtues come from discoveries, some from integration, but others are simply natural aspects of a person's gift (gentle, inoffensive, magical focus, special circumstances). And a few (like Skilled Parens or Hermetic Prestige) are neither, they're aspects of the mage's dealings with their fellows.
Not all Hermetic Virtues fit any single mould.
Yes, Jebrick, Hermetic Virtues have been reconciled with Hermetic Theory, as opposed to Supernatural Virtues, which have not. That is the whole point of the Order of Hermes, to take the various supernatural elements and reconcile them. Theoretically, at some point in the future, if the Order gets off it's bum, all Supernatural Virtues and Abilities will be part of Hermetic Theory, and there will not be any Hermetic Virtues, or Supernatural Virtues (within the Order), because they will all have been incorporated into Hermetic Theory, per the rules in HOH, TL. All Hermetic Virtues fit the single mold of Hermetic Theory, thus the "Hermetic" part of the phrase.....
I'll grant you, Kingreaper, there are some hermetic virtues(mundane), as opposed to the Hermetic Virtues(magical).
I don't understand what you are saying here. And for the record, they are Hermetic virtues.
Ah, my bad Mr. Link, I was just looking at Major Hermetic Virtues, and you posted while I was fixing that. My bad. My general point was that we have Hermetic Virtues, which are Supernatural Virtues affecting how a Magi uses Magic, and hermetic virtues, that aren't magic, but you can posses by virtue of being a Hermetic Mage. Such as Skilled Parens, which you need to have a parens to posses, but don't affect Hermetic Theory in any way. A confusion of terms, I think, like unto the D&D "Level".
I just wanted to clarify what you were stating. I don't disagree with you I think Hermetic Prestige is more like a Social Status virtue or even a story flaw in some respects. Skilled Parens is very similar to Hermetic Prestige but with the addition of 60 xp for Arts and Abilities and 30 levels of spells.
Yes, sort of a unspoken virtue/flaw category, "Virtue, Hermetic Story", "Flaw, Hermetic Story". Mind, "Skilled Parens" calls back to what started the thread, setting up a Hermetic University. I think getting rid of the "Hermetic family", the Apprentice/Parens bond, is going to be a far bigger change to the Order and the setting then incorporating "The Gentle Gift" would be.....
I don't disagree with that assessment. I just think it's better off to integrate Unaffected by the Gift.
Recently rewatched some Harry Potter, and this seems to be how it is in Potterverse. Most of the muggles I noted don't like the wizards and witches, but the wizards and witches don't have any particular feelings of dislike towards each other. I think it is important to the game and the setting that magi remain apart from the normal world, not just by their proclivity to study, but also because people just don't like them.
Remember the Gift isn't just a -3 to social rolls. It's a -3 on top of someone not liking you or trusting you, and it's easy and reasonable to believe that you start with a harder EF than a normal person might, on top of the -3 penalty. Reviewing the description of the Gifted and how mundanes interact with them on page 76 might be helpful. It's easy to say it's a -3 penalty, but that's not entirely accurate. It's a -3 penalty starting from a place of distrust and dislike.
You just come into many of the same problems you do with Parma Magica, which is why it is not my favored solution. In both cases, once you've learned enough, the social effects of The Gift have been dealt with, but first you have to "learn enough", and how do you do that with The Gift in the way? Maybe it's just in the games I've played in and seen, nobody needed a -3 from The Gift, they earned the fear of the common folk just fine on their own......
Nowhere in the books does it say that. In fact, that interpretation doesn't fit with what the books say in other places.
When it defines Hermetic Virtues it says, and I quote:
"Only characters with The Gift can take these Virtues and Flaws, and some are only applicable to Hermetic magi who have already completed their training."
Nothing about them all being reconciled with Hermetic Theory.
Do you really, truly, believe that Special Circumstances (While touching her twin) is something that has been integrated into hermetic theory?
Tell me how you envision an Order where everyone has the Gentle Gift? How does the Blatant Gift fit within your paradigm? In one swoop you remove a major virtue and flaw from the game.
In an environment where opening the Arts gives you Unaffected by the Gift, making all learning to be a magus (including learning Latin) happen after that isn't a big deal. If it is standardized like Potterverse, 7 years at Hogwarts, with summers off and you're a magus, I think there's plenty of opportunity to get a lot of learning in that span. Consider that's basically 21 seasons of learning, which is 6 more seasons than the minimum necessary for a Hermetic apprentice.
Well, first, of course, I don't see a Order where everyone has The Gentle Gift. I see an Order in transition, with an Old guard without the Gentle Gift, but with vast magical experience and power, and young turks coming out of this University, with the Gentle Gift, but lacking in the social network and family structure that came with the old, Parens, system. Lots of stories there. Second, those who have The Blatant Gift will still have it, for while we on the outside understand the Gentle Gift and the Blatant Gift to be opposites, the rules don't say that, and I'm the rules I'm aware of say that you cannot have both the Gentle Gift and the Blatant Gift, so BG trumps/disallows the Gentle Gift, Serf's Parma. Given the rules of the game, I do see a lot of new Mystery Scripts sacrificing The Gentle Gift.......
For me and my elitist fellow magicians that wield true power, "Gentle Gift" is just another name for second rate magicians.
Xavi