The problem with that, as I understand it, is that such a belief is very widespread. There were Greek philosophers who spoke of a divine law above the gods, and in Egyptian mythology this was referred to as Maat- and eventually Maat was personified. If you go with the 'higher law' model then all religions have Dominion auras, and the point is explicitly made that this is not the case.
Unfortunately, that's not a very satisfactory answer. There is no creator to oppose or people to corrupt, and vice certainly is the antithesis of the religion, therefore Infernal realm makes no sense.
As for Faerie, it's not like Buddhism is a polytheistic faith, with multiple gods to appeal to, all of them trying to shake you for your vitality. Buddhism does include some elements of polytheism, devas (etc.) some of which could be Faeries, but they are so unimportant to the tenets of the faith that I could not call the faith a Faerie religion like classical polytheism would be, unlike Hinduism which would definitely fit with Faerie with an occasional Infernal idol thrown in.
If I had to connect Buddhism to an existing realm, I would connect it to the Magic Realm. There's a lot of striking parallels to be made between House Criamon paths and ethos and Buddhism's non-violence, contemplation and the quest for nirvana - a way to end a cycle of endless painful rebirths. A fifth realm could be considered, but that would require a lot of explanation for why a fifth realm exists at all.
1 Like
Except because the infernal is deceptive. Spreading any belief that turns faith away from God could be some infernal scheme. Anything can be actually infernal, remember 3rd Edition!
The Magic real sounds quite nice as an option too, anyway. Magic it is, then! (unless infernal scheme at work).
1 Like
Magic as source of the samsaric powers of the "saints" of Mahayana Buddhism, the Boddhisatvas, makes sense indeed.
magic makes sense on a philosophical level too.
Magic generally represents the objective or real.
At least in some buddhist theologies, buddhism is about rejecting the fundamental unreality of the world, in order to escape it.
1 Like
This should resolve the issue of Buddhism in ArM5 canon: Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - #3 by Jarkman
yes and no, because apparently in the 13 century there were Buddhists in Asia minor. Not a lot of Buddhists and they mostly came with the Mongols, but they were there, unlike Hindus.
1 Like
Quite. But they appear earliest in the 1270s, and were not noticed even then in ME. Lots of things have happened in the historical 1270s close to Europe, which ArM5 canon and most ArM5 sagas do not care about.
That leaves you with the options I outlined here, if you wish to extend ME's perspective for your sagas then.
Out of curiousity, what would be the implications of Buddhism being dual aspected? Like, say Buddhism as a practice is both Magic and Divine, with auras falling on either side of the scale per GM ruling? Or even auras which are both Magic and Divine?
I only wonder because we already know that mages who are typically aligned with Magic, can also be associated with the other realms, such as Cthonic Mages, Holy Mages, and Merinita.
In the saga I am playing in, we have already dealt with fairy entities masqueradings as saints, magic animals which have been getting revelations from an ongoing miracle(with beliefs which lean into the rather heretical), and even a demon at one point. Moreover, half the players are Merinita.
Idk, I am just wondering what the consequences would be if you had the four realms, but then allowed certain practices and perhaps auras if they come up, to be of multiple realms. They would have to be very rare, like you aren't going to get a fairy and infernal aura normally, you would get a regio. The only way to make those auras would be with practices which occupy multiple realms.
That at least would deal with the issue of people considering a fifth realm for Buddhism. Moreover, if people get hung up on the whole monotheism angle, perhaps the angle is that shared virtues such as generosity, compassion, and mandates against sexual misconduct are evidence for the Dominion's inspiration, and why such Buddhism has an aspect of the divine, despite not worshiping the judeo-christian god.
I am still kind of new to Ars Magica, so I don't know if this would break something significant in the lore.
3 Likes
AFAICT
This could totally work for a tradition, but the realms are more "solid" in that usually, even if, in rare cases, you can change realms, you can't belong to 2 of them.
One example akin to what you're proposing is shown in a book: A dragon who had a revelation and became a Divine creature as a consequence (Serf's Parma).
The thing that comes closest to that is the Infernal, with its abilities to both corrupt and masquerade, but even then, even infernal might and auras are realm specific.
tl;dr: You could set up a tradition aligned to both Divine and Magic, with restrictions similar to holy mages. Outside of that, I'd say it's house rules territory
2 Likes
The rule by RAW is that entities with might can only belong to one realm, but humans can straddle them. Of course aside from the Buddhavista (sp?) Buddhism has a distinct paucity of entities compared to other traditions, so I suspect that would come with a certain amount of freedom regarding realms.
In some ways the best description of buddhism in terms of AM realms would be a religion which pulled the curtain back on faerie and proclaimed that none of it is real.
I agree with @The_Fixer . A buddhist monk, just like a holy magus or a merinita, could have powers granted by any or every realm. A buddhist deity, if such exists, is born of only one realm. An entity of a different realm could masquerade as the deity, but would then pretend to belong to a realm different from its true one. Everything has a true nature. If nirvana is a place, it has to be in one of the realms (Arcadia, Heaven, Twilight Void, etc., or maybe the Fifth Element); how could it possibly exist in two places?
I am not sure a buddhist creature makes any sense. Would a Divine creature associate with one human religion? That does not make sense to me. Human religion is mere shadow of real divinity, and Divine creatures are supposed to be pure, true forms so to speak. But at this point we bang into what has been a major challenge since Ars Magica players started to discover that Islam and Judaism were part of Mythic Europe too, some time around 3ed. It is not easy to consolidate a world true to legend with a myriad of conflicting legends.
1 Like
The other aspect of this that complicates the realms is that Buddhism simply is not structurally like monotheistic or polytheistic religions. Realistically the divine, as written originally was associated with one religion, now it is associated with monotheism. Polytheism was simply not a part of it and western atheism was simply a foregone conclusion that it would not be included.
Buddhism on the other hand is an atheistic religion- a religion which does not have a God figure at all. Aside from this feature it has a lot of similarities (in general) with western "divine" religions- the purging of desire sits very close to the avoidance of the seven deadly sins. The idea that the worldly is corrupt also matches between the beliefs.
Similarly unlike heaven Nivana is literally defined to be nowhere- not a place, but is somehow transcendent of the idea of place. It is reached by realizing that the idea of places is itself a construct and an illusion. Ironically within the game this is factually correct- the entire game takes place in the imagination, and when the characters travel from France to Greece they are not in fact going anywhere. However if we take this to the logical conclusion then the way for characters to achieve Nirvana in the game is for the players to stop playing the game.
Of course the same way a churchman can be a secret diabolist Buddhism is not completely pure in its implementation either, and in some ways depending on the branch it can run very counter to traditional western faith. The idea, for example, that one can expunge lust by indulging in it until sex is something you no longer desire makes sense from a Buddhist perspective while the idea is completely contrary to the idea of how sin works for a western religion.
Does that make a difference?
Arcadia is already transcendental to the point that the distinction between somewhere and nowhere is blurred.
Now, there is precedence for widespread in character beliefs which are simply factually wrong in the world. When it concerns the Criamon, it is fiction and they can actually write it. When it comes to buddhists (or any other religion for that matter), it would be offensive and unpublishable, even if it be the only solution to make the world consistent.
Gödel's incompleteness theorems, or something very similar, seems to apply to game worlds. When you play it to its limits, it will break down, and even if it can be mended, we are on our own.
1 Like
There is an alternative here.
Taking a step back and looking at the world as a whole and going back to its old (and now non-canonical) links to Mage the Ascension.
The Medieval Paradigm is the European paradigm of this time and only exists within Europe and places heavily occupied by Europeans.
Stepping sufficiently outside of Europe, one might expect to encounter other dominant paradigms such as in the Far East.
There you may find that traditional Divine auras are nearly absent, but that there exist auras associated with Buddhist temples unknown in Europe that obey different realm interactions. They superficially resemble divine auras, but provide no benefit to holy magi or people of True Faith.
Attempting to travel too far outside the known world makes it increasingly likely that you will fall into Faerie regios about distant lands or the edges of the world.
1 Like
The problem with this is that the Mongols brought Buddhism to Asia minor, and it definitely would be in the levant at least durring teh early part of their occupation, so this isn't really about a long, long ays away, it's coming into Mythic Europe, at least briefly.
1 Like
As was suggested earlier in the thread, Buddhism - like the Mongol invasion - can be ultimately presented as rooted in any of the four Realms, or even in the "fifth" realm, Mundanity.
Bhuddism is Divine. The seven Virtues are in fact nothing but the Perfections (Pāramitā). Cultivating them allows one to escape from craving (Taṇhā) and suffering (Duḥkha) - essentially the Infernal, or at least the "flawed" state that men inherit at birth (e.g. as a result of Original Sin). The result is salvation and oneness with God, viewed as ultimate enlightenment (Bohdi and) purity (Nirvana). Shaolin Kung Fu is a Tradition favouring Meditation, Purity, and Trascendence.
Bhuddism is Infernal. A subtle corruption associated with Pride and Sloth, Buddhism preaches that everything, including the world and even God - is but illusion. Man can achieve "salvation" by rejecting it, ceasing to strive (the quintessence of Sloth!), and finding enlightenment within himself (the quintessence of Pride!). Shaolin Kung Fu is an Infernal Tradition favouring, among others, Debauchery and Malediction.
Bhuddism is Faerie. The practices of Bhuddism are ways to generate vitality for Faeries, and the quest for salvation is the Ultimate Story. Many wise old monks are, in fact, Faeries, some of whom may once have been humans. Shaolin Kung Fu can be a Faerie Pretense, or Clesrada by another name.
Bhuddism is Magic. Criamon is the Bhudda, Repose is Nirvana, most Criamon Paths are the way to escape Illusion and the eternal cycle of reincarnation (with a focus on Apt Action, and becoming a Bhodisattva to aid others). Did I mention abstinence from meat and worldly ties? Shaolin Kung Fu is, ultimately, nothing but Labyrinth Meditations plus the Path of the Body.
Bhuddism is Mundane. Just as in the real world! Shaolin Kung Fu is a mix of Concentration, Athletics, Medicine, Brawl, and Single and Great Weapon.
9 Likes
I'd like to redouble the point that while creatures are seemingly universally mono-Realm by default, supernatural traditions and metaphysics don't have to fall along such neat lines. Let's take Ancient Egypt within Ars Magica as an example - it has mainly Faerie gods and Faerie-aligned priests, yet they also canonically have their afterlife (whose conditions are produced by their religious rites surrounding death) in the Magic Realm, inhabited by their Magic spirits. Or the several traditions and sub-traditions within and outside the Order whose powers/spells count as multiple Realms and let you pick the most favorable alignment for Realm Interaction purposes.
I think I best like the argument that Buddhism is Magic-aligned, since its focus is on the inward processes of spiritual development rather than devotion to an external power (as Divine or Faerie), striving towards purity and enlightenment (antithetical to the selfish, impulsive, or evil motives of the Infernal). And while this may be spurious, my general understanding of the even more general category of "Buddhist mysticism" is that pursuing an existing Magic Aura to perform that spiritual pursuit within is more on-brand than solely generating a Divine, Faerie, or Infernal Aura through fervor.
And yet, Buddhism is also so in line with everything about the Divine Realm and its functioning and demands of practice except for the worship part. You can make silly arguments for the Buddhist lifestyle being one of Sloth or Pride, but only in definitions that would brush every Christian monastery with the same paint. They are both fundamentally about separating oneself from the distracting temptations of mortal flesh in pursuit of moral and spiritual clarity that will allow one to transcend the intrinsic suffering and evil of earthly existence. So if you include Buddhist supernatural traditions, I would consider it every bit justifiable, perhaps even the best option, to give them the Holy Magic-esque "functions as Magic or Divine for Realm Interactions" feature. They could very believably have an Enlightenment Major Virtue that functions similarly to True Faith, which incidentally could help a lot if you want the Buddhist mystics to be scarier to magi, but with its own set of trials to maintain attached. This will be every bit alarming as it ought to be to Christian mystics who are used to their enemies' abilities being weakened on their turf.
2 Likes
Since it's entirely possible that I might have a Buddhist in my game some day, I think it would be unbelievably obnoxious to tell them that their religion belongs in the Infernal Realm. Or the Faerie Realm. Or even in the Magic Realm.
True Love is stated to come from the Divine Realm, and it has not at all to do with monotheism. So I also find the Divine Realm = monotheism argument to be uselessly glib.
It hurts nothing in the game to say that Buddhism contacts the Divine Realm, and then proceed from there to figure out the in-game details of how that might work. And that has the benefit of not being obnoxious to potential (or actual) players.
Ars Magica is inherently obnoxious. I've had polytheistic players who were affronted by the "all the polytheistic religions are just fair folk constructs meant to feed on human stories and creativity" thing.
Also, True Love isn't divine, that's just the popular Hermetic assumption. Those guys are wrong about stuff all the time. Their own Magic-aligned familiar binding process creates True Friendship.