Buddhism and realms

You can really take two approaches IMO.

Either Buddhism is divine.
In this scenario the faith of the Buddhist person and their individual journey towards salvation (but with described using a Buddhist word) has a relationship with the divine that does not differ sufficiently, from that of any other divine religion to make it any different from the point of view of an outside observer. This has the big theological problem that the different divine faiths have mutually exclusive versions of what the divine actually is and what happens to the soul after death. But adding Buddhism to this theological pile of contradictions really changes little in the game.
Thus you can IMO add Buddhism to the divine with no real consequences for how the game works. (Note that this gets a lot harder if you try it on some of the Buddhist denominations, but the same problem, again applies to any of the other religions that are already included in the divine in canon.
This is the ideal solution if you run a game and for some reason you need Buddhism to exist in the world of your game but you dont want the game to be about what Buddhism is. The advantage here is that you dont have to bother with deciding what Buddism is on a metaphysical level or how to deal with the in- and out- of game consequences of it.

or: You can do something interesting!
This is what you do when you want to have a game where the exact metaphysical nature of buddhism is an important plot point in your game. E.g. perhaps Buddhist enlightenment is more akin to ascendancy into the hall of heroes and practicing buddhism allows a magus to become truly immortal by setting up shop in the magic realm. This approach is only suitable if you need buddhism to be something specific for your game to work and you know that your group will not be offended by it (preferably you would know so because you asked your group).

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Fundamentally the only reservation (in game context) with Buddhism being divine is the fact that the divine is considered to be explicitly monotheistic. If you tear that away then Buddhism as divine bears little difference from ma'at or divine law that was above the gods (who can remain magical/fey) of ancient Egypt, and the concept of which was also extant in ancient Greece (except that while Egyptians personified Ma'at the Greeks refused to do so).
One could even (if one were so inclined) draw a line from this to science in which the idea of an overarching law that exists above religion can be described as a natural philosophy...

Isn't it rather, that any realms (ArM5 p.182ff) come with Auras, realm interaction and creatures?
Not even boddhisatvas use powers of a specific realm aligned to Buddhism - though in Mahayana, wanting to reach Buddhahood for the sake of all beings, they may wield powers of the samsaric realms.

A realm dedicated to represent "divine laws" is very close to the tested and generally deplored "realm of reason". There appears to be just no need for it, right?

No, a realm of divine law or ma'at is very much not the realm of reason, which was realistically the realm of skepticism, or more accurately a realm created to represent the "future" technocracy to connect the game to White Wolf's Mage the ascension series. My point is that if we redefine the divine to not be explicitly monotheistic then a realm of divine order is what emerges, not that we need to add a realm of reason.

Also when i say that the only problem with Buddhism being divine in game terms is monotheism, I actually mean in game terms without diving into the details of doctrine for an extremely diverse religion where anyone in this forum pretending at expertise is simply illuminating their own ego.

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Game terms can be everything you care to discuss - as long as it is your game.

But why do you ask in the OP:

That you don't wish to discuss the example you brought up - Buddhism - shows it to be a mere pretext.
Actually all you appear to be interested in is rekindling for the umpteenth time the discussion of how you would like to modify the Divine realm.

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First of all this is a discussion, so my perspective has changed during it.
Second of all I was replying to your response to another one of my statements which you appear to have taken to have the exact opposite meaning to what i was saying- that in terms of the rules the problem I see with Buddhism being divine is that the divine, in game, is defined as being monotheistic.
Thirdly the responses you have made in this discussion seem to b insisting that you be shown a level of respect and even deference that you appear not to be willing to give to others, and that just rubs me the wrong way.
I in fact was specifically asking about Buddhism for very specific reasons, not for your imagined subterfuge, and I would ask you to stop conjecturing on what you believe I am thinking and criticizing me personally on those grounds. From my perspective it seems like you are trying to provoke a fight.

First I am no expert on Buddhism, with only cursory and anecdotal experience with it.

Looking things over, IMPO Buddhism would best fit into the Magic Realm. In general things within the Magic Realm tend to be brighter, clearer, and draw closer to their true nature. It does not require the worship of any being. Even Magic Realm based faiths which have a "god" figure normally result in that figure having little to no interest in interacting with their worshipers. Those that do have a figure which has a little interest in interacting, it can actually serve as a guide and adviser on their path more than as a "god" figure. The site of many Buddhist monasteries also seems to favor sites which would have a Magic Aura.

Faerie Realm would seem to be on the exact opposite end of what I would expect most forms of Buddhism to strive for. It is illusion, glamor, appearance over substance, and generally ends up leading to the worship of several beings who echo your personal wants and desires back at you. While possible to design a fae being which promotes the goals, ultimately it feels like it would be a false path. So something you could use for a small corrupted sect but not the core of the whole faith.

You could create a re-skinned version of the True Faith Virtue named "Karma". Functional though most likely not the best way to go about it since in general the effects it could produce would not fit well.

The best published material I can think of is from the 4th ed Hedge Magic book. The Ascetics (p.50) could fairly easily be tweaked and modified to work for Buddhist monks. They also have the advantage of being relatively Realm agnostic (only taking a penalty from Infernal). This would allow them to function in a variety of Realms and have a blend located across their locations. They could have a mix of Magic, Faerie, and Divine without disrupting them. I feel this is the best fit, since the answer to which Realm would be "All and none".

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i don't have RoP:D here to check but I guess that might not be an a priori definition but just a statistical fact derived from the fact that all religions with the Divine stamp have only one god. But in the same way that my uncle have 5 sheep and they are all white don't allow me to infer that all sheep are white, that maybe shouldn't allow you to conclude that your religion must have just one god to enter team Divine.

And if the definition straigh claims that just monotheistic religions can be Divine, well, then there is your answer, realm must be either Faerie or Infernal.

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RoP:D p 4 "it is an in-game truth that God exists and resides in the Divine realm." So yes, it is pretty much a straight up definition.
also on p.7 "may have a dominion as may other monotheistic faiths"

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:point_down:

There may be some wiggle room in there.

I suck at buddhism, so pardon me if this is irrelevant or nonsensical.

As I understand it, the idea of the Divine is that there is one supreme being.
But I believe this can be defined a little loosely.
Say, if one believes that the Universe, or the Karmic Wheel, or some principle, is greater than gods, it could maybe be seen as one's perception of the Divine God.

Likewise, what one perceives as Gods could be seen by another as saints (actually, I believe this was presented in one of the books).

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The problem with that, as I understand it, is that such a belief is very widespread. There were Greek philosophers who spoke of a divine law above the gods, and in Egyptian mythology this was referred to as Maat- and eventually Maat was personified. If you go with the 'higher law' model then all religions have Dominion auras, and the point is explicitly made that this is not the case.

Unfortunately, that's not a very satisfactory answer. There is no creator to oppose or people to corrupt, and vice certainly is the antithesis of the religion, therefore Infernal realm makes no sense.

As for Faerie, it's not like Buddhism is a polytheistic faith, with multiple gods to appeal to, all of them trying to shake you for your vitality. Buddhism does include some elements of polytheism, devas (etc.) some of which could be Faeries, but they are so unimportant to the tenets of the faith that I could not call the faith a Faerie religion like classical polytheism would be, unlike Hinduism which would definitely fit with Faerie with an occasional Infernal idol thrown in.

If I had to connect Buddhism to an existing realm, I would connect it to the Magic Realm. There's a lot of striking parallels to be made between House Criamon paths and ethos and Buddhism's non-violence, contemplation and the quest for nirvana - a way to end a cycle of endless painful rebirths. A fifth realm could be considered, but that would require a lot of explanation for why a fifth realm exists at all.

Except because the infernal is deceptive. Spreading any belief that turns faith away from God could be some infernal scheme. Anything can be actually infernal, remember 3rd Edition!

The Magic real sounds quite nice as an option too, anyway. Magic it is, then! (unless infernal scheme at work).

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Magic as source of the samsaric powers of the "saints" of Mahayana Buddhism, the Boddhisatvas, makes sense indeed.

magic makes sense on a philosophical level too.

Magic generally represents the objective or real.

At least in some buddhist theologies, buddhism is about rejecting the fundamental unreality of the world, in order to escape it.

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This should resolve the issue of Buddhism in ArM5 canon: Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - #3 by Jarkman

yes and no, because apparently in the 13 century there were Buddhists in Asia minor. Not a lot of Buddhists and they mostly came with the Mongols, but they were there, unlike Hindus.

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Quite. But they appear earliest in the 1270s, and were not noticed even then in ME. Lots of things have happened in the historical 1270s close to Europe, which ArM5 canon and most ArM5 sagas do not care about.

That leaves you with the options I outlined here, if you wish to extend ME's perspective for your sagas then.

Out of curiousity, what would be the implications of Buddhism being dual aspected? Like, say Buddhism as a practice is both Magic and Divine, with auras falling on either side of the scale per GM ruling? Or even auras which are both Magic and Divine?

I only wonder because we already know that mages who are typically aligned with Magic, can also be associated with the other realms, such as Cthonic Mages, Holy Mages, and Merinita.

In the saga I am playing in, we have already dealt with fairy entities masqueradings as saints, magic animals which have been getting revelations from an ongoing miracle(with beliefs which lean into the rather heretical), and even a demon at one point. Moreover, half the players are Merinita.

Idk, I am just wondering what the consequences would be if you had the four realms, but then allowed certain practices and perhaps auras if they come up, to be of multiple realms. They would have to be very rare, like you aren't going to get a fairy and infernal aura normally, you would get a regio. The only way to make those auras would be with practices which occupy multiple realms.

That at least would deal with the issue of people considering a fifth realm for Buddhism. Moreover, if people get hung up on the whole monotheism angle, perhaps the angle is that shared virtues such as generosity, compassion, and mandates against sexual misconduct are evidence for the Dominion's inspiration, and why such Buddhism has an aspect of the divine, despite not worshiping the judeo-christian god.

I am still kind of new to Ars Magica, so I don't know if this would break something significant in the lore.

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