Calculus

Yep. The community says: "Der Mathematiker, und das ist unausweichlich, muss manchmal mogeln - und er tut es reichlich."

Finding the right axioms and definitions is only worthwhile, if the theory to build on them is ready and interesting. This holds in particular, if these definitions by themselves - like with Lebesgue integration and measure theory - are too complex to bring to high school.
So while a mathematical theory is discussed, developed and expanded, it tends to look very different than how it is finally presented, published and used.

Some proto-calculus being invented in an Hermetic covenant will not be very different - and might have significant problems with recognition among the scholastic community.

1 Like

In terms of game effects it is clear from the historical record that developing calculus allows one to overcome the limit of the lunar sphere...

1 Like

Calculus in Ars Magica? A big issue in answering the question is: What do you mean by calculus?
Roughly speaking, one can think of two main components to calculus as taught in nodern schools:

  1. the notion of functions and
  2. the handling of infinitesimals (and infinites).

From the perspective of a modern high-school student 1 is very easy, and is taught first as an "introduction" to calculus; whereas 2. is the tough part where the "real meat" of calculus is.
This view is misleading.

In fact, (2) was understood at least 2400 years ago by greek philophers and mathematicians predating Aristotle (in particular, Eudoxus); they already had the notion of infinite series, and the rough idea of Riemann/Lebesgue integration -- which they readily applied to compute the lengths of, and areas under, complex curves. In this sense, I would disagree with Ouroboros when he states that Aristotle, by positing that the infinitely large and small are beyond the graps of men, blocked the advancement of calculus. In fact, it was quite the opposite. As far as I can tell Aristotle, echoing the prevailing views of mathematicians of his day, was saying that the infinitely large and small are tricky to handle directly (and instead best handled as infinite sets of progressively larger/smaller but finite approximations -- which is exactly the modern approach).

What seemed to be lacking in antiquity was (1). The very term "function" is first introduced by Leibniz, and the concept goes through a lot of revisions (and fallacies) in the 1700s and 1800s until we get to the modern view of it in the early 1900s. And here's the catch. Getting a "rough" idea of function is easy, and with it you can do basic calculus, which the ancient greeks did. Oreme (late 1300s) certainly has the idea when he talks about temperature of a metal rod as a function of the specific point on the rod, but I would argue that anyone who's studied quantitative phenomena where some of the variables are not spatial (e.g. at least one of them is time) intuitively has it: when/where quantity x has this value, quantity y has this other value, e.g. x multiplied by itself. But without a rigourous definition -- in fact, more rigorous than what was available to Leibniz and Newtown, as can be seen by the criticisms of e.g. Fourier -- the more advanced forms of calculus are not readily accessible and it's really easy to incur in deep fallacies.

To summarize, this is how I'd play it.
A high score in Artes Liberales already gives you access to "basic calculus".
Integration is covered by Artes Liberales (Geometry), and in this regard most of what a high school student can do without logarithms or exponentials can be done with a sufficiently high roll -- e.g. computing the area under a parabola, or the length an elliptical path.
The basics of definitions, theorems and proofs, as well as of functions, are covered by Artes Liberales (Logic) -- there's quite a lot of room for improvement here, but it's tough, tough work with very little to show for it in practice (the equivalent of minor breakthroughs might each provide a +1, or -1 botch die, to other "scientific" rolls).

1 Like

Other SG in Bob's campaign here. I feel that calculus could be developed as a theoretical counterpart to experimental work in mechanics. In the 13th century setting we already have Abu'l-Barakat al-Baghdadi, who refuted Aristotle's theories of motion, distinguishing acceleration and velocity and realising force is proportional to the former. Avempace also lays the ground-work for non Aristotelian mechanics, recorded in Averroes' commentary on Aristotle's Physics, which is already available to the troupe. In my head a theoretician working with an experimentalist with access to the necessary Arabic groundwork texts (to prompt them to start thinking beyond Aristotle) could make progress by describing ballistics and astronomy [another theme in the campaign, breakthroughs in Optics could lead to telescopes which could lead to heliocentrism].

Once the seeds of doubt in Aristotle are planted, perhaps an Artes Liberales and a Philosophy breakthrough, side by side, one leading to calculus, the other leading to Newtonian mechanics, which someone feed into one another, would be a potential route? Hermetic magic (in particular making devices) and Experimental Philosophy/Artes Liberales could both be used.

The end result would be the purely mundane description of mechanics and calculus, which could have a whole load of potential usages. This could then be integrated into Hermetic Magic, and provide the benefits of improved notation and more systematic, mathematical approach to durations and targets. It would presumably also have the same benefit as integrating Aristotle or Plato with Hermetic Magic (adding Artes Liberales).

My biggest problem is how would this be rationalised with the established metaphysics of the game. As everything is written for Aristotelian physics (in particular spell rules and targetting and stuff), how would this be rationalised?

Also, would new academic abilities like "maths" be created? I feel like the organisation of abilities is entirely dependent on the education system, there's nothing fundamental about the combination of the 7 liberal arts.

1 Like

Yep. Eudoxos' mathematical works are only conveyed to us as quotes in the works of other authors.

But those magi in the Theban Tribunal interested in mathematics had better access than us and their western sodales to the remaining Byzantine libraries. They well might have had better access to older mathematical works.

So those magi in @rgd20's saga and able to read Classical Greek might find the exhaustion method as a powerful tool of numerical integration there.
Eudoxos' general notion of proportion can be found in Euclid anyway - available in Latin via Boethius. It easily makes arguments about the proportions of sequences of numbers safe, even if these numbers converge to zero or diverge to infinity.

EDIT: Euclid uses the exhaustion method quite often in the Elements. So magi do not need original texts of Eudoxos to learn and apply it: Boethius' Latin translation of the Elements would be sufficient.

1 Like

This is really the big issue. It is no longer about calculus, but about those Aristotelian mechanics that went in many places into the Hermetic spell design.

Wouldn't Mythic Europe disappear this way, and leave the magi in a rather mundane world?

Big indeed. You would have to change the laws of nature in Mythic Europe. Perhaps by Divine Fiat at the end of the saga? Perhaps at the beginning of the saga, when many spells do not work as intended, the Order succumbs to confusion, and the PCs try to explain to their sodales the workings of the new world?

Wouldn't the prestige of the scholastic universities quickly disappear - and with them terms like Artes Liberales - as soon as your "maths" would get accepted? You might instead get academies of sciences well before their time.

What we have here is a failure to anticipate

The idea that physics would be aristotilian is a leftover, I believe of 3rd edition, which tied to white Wolf and had a simple mechanism by which such natural laws would change- belief shaped reality.
In 5th edition that cosmology is broken, but there wasn't much in reconsideration of the setting, so we have a setting which is supposed to be historical but with different laws of physics, which even if it were roughly the same history as our world up to 1220 obviously it cannot continue to follow our world's development if the rules remain different.

I don't know that the game has a solid and consistent cosmology that can deal effectively with these kinds of issues. I recall at one point someone writing that before the rise of Christianity the world obviously had to have worked differently, so a setting in Ancient Rome would need different rules, but without that WW cosmology that sort of effect makes very little sense. You can suppose a change based on divine Fiat, but when it ties to events in a particular religion you are clearly showing bias to that religion. Obviously the laws of physics could change with the rise of Protestantism or something similar, but again...

1 Like

Is this a problem? Why?

Mythic Europe is not just 1220 Europe. It is (ArM5 p.199) "a world very like the middle ages of our world, but with magic."

Developing that world further is the responsibility of the troupes and authors: you can try to follow real history, but are not obliged to. Playing a saga over a longer period will require you to make decisions about the development of the Divine, Infernal, Faerie, Magic and the mundane world. Will the Divine follow the history of ideas in the real world? If so, which ideas? Will Faerie disappear among literature and theatre?
Will Magic adapt to developing science? Will the mundane world be influenced by Magic TME style? Each of these questions can lead to infinite stories, of which many deserve to be told.

EDIT: I forgot DI! If you don't see any other way out, there is always The End of Time, the Fimbulwinter, The Great Pestilence or The Twilight of the Gods! Just pick one!

1 Like

Is it possible that Hermetic magic can follow Aristotelian mechanics (because that's what Bonisagus based it on), while the actual mechanics that the world is based on is open to interpretation?

That doesn't look plausible to me.

A simple example: a magus raises with ReTe a rock to let it fall onto a castle, or another magus, or whatever. What damage does that rock cause? Of what does it depend?

Perhaps you need to teach the Kosmokrator responsible for mathematics the ins and outs calculus to have it work? That might require a little bit of effort and a story or two...

2 Likes

This is really a nice idea for a "Transforming Mythic Europe" saga: change the nature of physics by convincing the relevant Kosmocrator(s) that stuff should really behave in a different way. Perhaps this is the way that physics will eventually turn newtonian ... or at least post-aristotelic.

3 Likes

Er, sorry, but he didn’t say that.

It’s confusing because he had two infinities (actually 4, but for this we only talk about those he named “by division”, these which lead to 0 by dividing segments. He was ok with the potential one, which means that it would be ok to go as small as you want, but never get to 0 as you couldn’t complete the process, but not with the actual “infinite division” leading to 0.

Part of his problem of course was that he didn’t had the number 0 as a concept, which is what we use to take the limit and consider his two infinities by division the same.

Shame on me for not remembering before that his problem was lacking a 0 to get to.

1 Like

Shame! :wink:

1 Like

I've always thought in Mythic Europe certain experiments which led to modern knowledge fail.

The 10 pound weight does land earlier than the 5 pound weight dropped at the same time. It's heavier, thus it drops faster. Newtonian physics stalls.

You keep a room well sealed, make sure there are no worms, keep a watch, and lo and behold, worms do spontaneously appear in the rotting straw. Biology has a problem.

Calculus seems less problematical as it is very much a though experiment breakthrough and needed little, if any, experimentation.

2 Likes

quantum mathematics- there exists a limit beyond which numbers become indivisible?

In math!? That would lead to all kind of paradoxes. That would make Zeno happy though: Achilles would never reach the turtle.

Or arrows and weapons hit their targets. Combat mechanics should be reajusted to become, I don’t know, dancing?

1 Like

It's actually one of the oldest areas of mathematics: that of integers :slight_smile:

Yes, but the idea that they are not simply undivided but indivisible is the issue- since the limitation is in the realm of ideas (pure math) it would require a change to how people think to where they literally could not conceive of something divided beyond a certain point. Good luck enforcing that on the troupe.

Pythagoreans around 450 BC had problems with irrational numbers and incommensurability in general. Eudoxos - as known in the middle ages via Euclid's Elements - in the 4th centrury BC introduced the general notion of proportion to resolve them for geometry.
This approach also makes infinite sequences of fractions, where both enumerator and denominator tend to 0, safe for arguments that could lead to differentiation.