And yet a magus engaged in lab work can always benefit from having a cat wandering around (their familiar), as well as an apprentice. Plus maybe many more helpers, given a sufficient 'Leadership' ability. There is no negative effect in the rules for these assistants, presumably because even the barest minimum of Magic Theory makes them conscious 'enough' of the effects of their presence & activities to avoid creating hazards or distractions.
The apprentice cannot produce anything while training; if they are performing a different (non-training) activity in the lab, then they are not being trained.
Nope; the apprentice cannot use Magic Theory untrained. So the apprentice has enough knowledge to stay out of the mage's way -- that is a consequence of having the MT ability at non-zero values. The training is specifically NOT treated as a distraction (unless the rules specify that a blacksmith training an apprentice suffers a distraction to their workshop total) -- the 'price' to the master is that they lose a season of the apprentices assistance, and whatever the apprentice might have produced in that season.
The cat familiar isn't "just wandering around" if it provides a bonus to the lab total -- it is actively participating in the project for the whole seaon, just like the magus himself. And if the familiar isn't participating in the project, it is keeping out of the way.
Training is working on something else, even if it is not something that produce something of significant value.
As described in ArM5 p.164, it requires supervision and feedback from the trainer. We handwave exactly what that is, but I imagine that for a woodworker it would be making tenons, practicing cuts on scraps of wood, planing, mixing glues with different test ingredients, etc.
Training may not be a significant distraction for a woodworker, or a blacksmith, or some other craft. They work on shorter projects that don't usually take a full season to complete. And mundane workshops can be large enough that th trainee can work on something without disturbing their trainer during more critical steps of their work.
My take on it is that Hermetic lab work is more delicate than mundane crafting, so that having someone doing something else in the same space causes problems.
No, I just assumed you were being consistent, as it necessarily followed from your prior statement. I wasn't expecting you to come out and argue against the position you had just take.
Let's look at Puissant MT, as that's the easiest. You had been saying you only use MT a small part of the time "without actually having to use your MT the rest of the time." If you're not using MT the rest of the time, then Puissant doesn't apply the rest of the time:
add 2 to its value whenever you use it.
Now you're saying the bonus "need[s] to apply for the whole season." That requires MT to be used for the whole season, not just for little bits and not used the rest of the time. So you have just presented an argument for my case and against your prior case.
Yes, that "earn a living" bit. I addressed this in the prior thread. As magi don't earn a living, which you're pointing out, if this is literal "earn a living" as a requirement, then they can't Train anyone in anything. But we know for sure they can as Apprentices explicitly says they can. That must mean the prior assumption, that "earn a living" is literal is false. So not actually earning a living from it must not disqualify one from Training.
Sure, but what about other people who are under your purview, even if they aren't "Lab Assistants"? I've seen lots of those, lots of "servants" and Forge Companions adding bonuses. In the particular case of the "servant," we have someone under your purview who isn't working on your project at all. And there I have always seen bonuses to Safety.
It looks like you are assuming / house-ruling that 'Training is working on something else'; I see nothing in the rules to support that. Indeed, 'Training is exactly working on the precisely the same thing' seems to be better supported -- how else is the master going to supervise and provide feedback? Kids being trained to cook in the kitchen -- they fetch & identify ingredients; measure the ingredients, chop and grate, mix and stir. Those same kids would be disastrous distractions if they were told to 'go cook something else' unsupervised.
Blacksmithing apprentices feed the forge, pump the bellows, secure the work, fetch & put away tools, sort the materials, maintain the tools, douse stray sparks, & etc. All on exactly the same project the master is working on -- so that they are constantly under the master's watchful gaze, where they can get feedback. If they could be trusted to 'go work on something else, unsupervised' then they would no longer be apprentices.
Working in the lab requires a dedicated and quiet space for the magus. As we can see in Covenants, if there are foreign entities active in your lab and not implicated in your work, that brings danger and uncertainty in your current project (reflected in various Lab flaws that reduce the Safety characteristic of the lab.)
Hmmm... a safety drop while training an apprentice (lab training) certainly seems workable
It's not like blacksmiths have anything like a safety score to worry about. I mean realistically someone could get burned or injured, but nothing is going to go boom.
Where does this billion times come in? The Lab total includes Te+Form+MT. If you are going back to the OG question - just post Gauntlet with high MT and no Arts - it wouldn't change my opinion.
I see two things that we disagree on. The first is do game mechanics define the in game world or do we work with common sense about the in game world first. I come down fairly firmly on the common sense side. Especially when we are trying to think about comparing systems dealing with magic (the main focus of the game and very detailed) with mundane crafting (very abstracted because fundamentally the game isn't about mundane craftsmen). So I don't see any discussion of Lab Totals versus Workshop Totals as being useful.
Instead I base my thoughts on how I view the skills. MT is a support ability that allows the mage to get the most out of their season of lab work in the same way that bargain is a support ability that allows the blacksmith to get the most out of their season of supporting themselves through smithing. As I said before this is based on my experience with advanced math and stats in engineering research. Helpfully, to me at least, this gives a feeling that magical lab work is more about the forms and techniques (the actual magic) and less about the skill that anyone can learn without or without any magic abilities.
This is not the only model for how MT and Arts are used in a season. I could see the idea that seasonal activities are more like pure math or logic activities where MT is the thing that they are using for hours every day with only a quick use of Arts once a week (or even less often) to prove that their magical constructs were correct.
Since we abstract things as seasons not individual moments of bargaining or moments of directly doing some form of MT calculation there is no clear cut way to deal with a short duration burst of super ability during season long activities. That's fine by me as part of the abstraction involved in the game. If we were playing out a non-seasonal activity it would be different. If you could boost an ability for a significant fraction of the season (say a month) I'd likely support some form of bonus.
No matter what I don't object to Callen's position. It is a perfectly valid way to play if a troupe wants to. It is consistent, logical, and not game breaking. It is however frustrating to me because it makes specific assumptions about how seasonal activities and MT work without spelling out those assumptions.
The bonus needs to be available at every time that the MT is called on. We don't know when in the season that is exactly. Thus an "always on" effect such as Puissant is fine. Something that is of limited duration such as Cyclic Magic or Vessels) doesn't work.
We also know that Planetary Magic works for seasonal activities (& specifically enchanting devices) even though it specifies which hour-to-hour times to work (or not) on a particular seasonal lab activity. So the 'available at all times' and 'applies throughout the entire season' bit of reasoning appears to be on shaky ground.
āSupposedā - may happen in central ME. But in reality what is the point of them learning magic theory. Latin I suppose, but itāll be forgotten if not enforced, plus if they are illiterate thatās another ability they need.
Cyclic Magic (both positive and negative) does not need to be aligned with the seasons. It can work on any cycle - moon, day and night, seasons, or something else, .
A bonus from Cyclic Magic applies to labwork if the bonus is active for the entire season.
A penalty from Cyclic Magic applies to labwork if the penalty is active for any part of the season
I think those minimum ability scores are intended to apply to an apprentice seeking promotion. A mature hedge wizard seeking admission would be judged by different rules.
