Can a magus, during a season of labwork, Train an apprentice in Magic Theory?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

According to ArM5, p.164,

Training is one-on-one training where the master shows the trainee what to do...
The master may work at earning a living while training an apprentice. The apprentice may only be taught an Ability which the master is using to earn a living over the whole season...
The apprentice may not earn a living or produce anything useful

Can a magus performing a season of "standard" lab work, such as enchanting a device or inventing spells, simultaneously Train an apprentice in Magic Theory under these rules? So the master gains nothing from the apprentice's help in the lab ("the apprentice may not ... produce anything useful") but the apprentice benefits from a significantly better Source Quality than the Exposure he'd get from standard "Help in the Laboratory" rules.

There seem to be different opinions on the issue. People who favour the "yes, he can" answer point out that labwork is "essentially" the way a magus earns a living, and that Magic Theory is necessary for labwork (though the latter point is somewhat controversial). Those favouring the "no, he can't" answer point out that the rules appear clearly written for mundane Professionals and Craftsmen with their seasons of work and free seasons, and that Craft: Blacksmith seems to be more central to a season of blacksmithing than Magic Theory is to a season of, say, spell invention which is based on knowledge of the Arts too (though this point has been debated too).

This seems a reasonably important question to clarify, given that a season of Training qualifies as the yearly season of direct instruction a Hermetic magus must provide to his apprentice (Apprentices, p.44), and that allowing a magus to carry it out during a seaason of "standard labwork", even if forfeiting the apprentice's help, is a very tempting option for masters who want to minimize the time "lost" to teaching. The question derailed much of this thread, and was in fact posed repeatedly but never resolved on this forum in the past (e.g., here and here).

Perhaps it deserves a poll, and @David_Chart would care to chime in?
Can a magus, during a season of "standard" laboratory work (e.g. enchanting a device, binding a familiar, inventing a spell), Train an apprentice in Magic Theory, perhaps forfeiting the Lab Total bonus that the apprentice would normally provide?

  • Yes, barring exceptional circumstances a magus can always Train an apprentice during a season of "standard" laboratory work.
  • No, barring exceptional circumstances a magus can never Train an apprentice during a season of "standard" laboratory work.
  • Whether a magus can Train an apprentice during a season of "standard" laboratory work depends a lot on the situation and on the narrative needs of the saga, and is best left to the individual troupe.
0 voters
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2

Are they? I would have said the opposite. If the rules were clearly written for mundane professionals, why would there be a need to note that Arts cannot be Trained right there? And if the rules were clearly written for mundane professionals, why does Apprentices say magi can using Training to instruct them. Based on these I would say the rules were clearly written for either mundane professionals or magi.

3

You're misrepresenting a few things. Not sure if it's deliberate or not.

From Covenants:
A maga must be familiar with the lab in question (as a rule of thumb, she must have have worked in the lab for a number of years equal to the existing Refinement score) and have a Magic Theory equal to at least the desired Refinement score, plus 3.

That means that a Magus without MT of 3, cannot work in the Lab at all. So MT is central to doing lab work.

Also, an apprentice with MT 3, and 0 in Arts, CAN invent spells, his lab total might be low, but he adds his MT + Int + Aura, so he could invent spells of level 3+ in one season.

If one needs an MT of 3 minimum (depending on the Lab's Refinement) to be able to familiarize himself in the lab so that he can actually work there, that, to me, means that MT is an integral part of lab work, whether it be enchanting, spell research, OR, Vis extraction, enchanting, familiar binding, or lab improvement.

I don't know how you can still stand by the point that MT isn't important in Lab work, but that's a different question.

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4

I tried to summarize the positions I saw expressed in the multiple threads as unbiasedly as I could. If you think I misrepresented what people have been saying, or what the rules say (a very different thing) feel free to discuss it - this is what this thread is for!

5

Your summary came off somewhat biased, and you didn't reply to the points I made in my reply in this thread, other than the opening line, kudos.

6

I will point out that you are rather taking that line out of context. Specifically the text you cut off:

The rules for increasing a lab’s
Refinement are quite straightforward: A
maga must be familiar

Yeah, you need Magic Theory 3 in order to increase Refinement, a stat used for high power labs. Your quote has absolutely nothing to do with how much Magic Theory one needs to actually work in a lab.

Consider this quote from the same section:

A freshly assembled lab starts with a
Refinement score of 0, unless the assembler has a Magic Theory of less than 3, in
which case its Refinement score is equal
to her Magic Theory – 3. However, for
a maga with a Magic Theory of more
than 3, the starting Refinement score is
always 0, no matter how high her Magic
Theory.

It seems pretty clearly implied that you don't even need MT3 to build a lab, let alone use it. You do get a penalty for building it wrong, but mechanically it still works.

I don't know that you necessarily need any Magic Theory save the absolute bare minimum to do Hermetic work in a lab. Is there any text which actually says that you need Magic Theory at all? I presume there has to be, but I am unsure of where that might be located.

EDIT:

Magi must have the following minimum
Abilities: Parma Magica 1, Magic Theory 1, Latin

  1. Characters with lower scores would not be
    admitted to the Order.

Here we have the bare minimum. From corebook.

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7

A few things:

A Magus needs a minimum MT 3, says so in the core book.

Note that the section I quoted says that to use a lab a magus must be familiar with it, and that his MT needs to be at least 3 + the Refinement of said lab. That means that to be familiar with the lab to use it, one needs to have at least MT 3, since the base for a Lab is Refinement +0.

Sure, the one assembling the Lab need only have MT 1 to do so, but to use the lab you must be familiar with it, and your MT needs to exceed it's Refinment (which is +0, by at least 3.

And the Magi minimums from the core book I have list it as MT 3.
Magi Minimum.pdf (210.6 KB)

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8

This has the recommended minimum stats, not the lowest necessary ones. @Darth_Bubbles quotes ArMDE correctly.

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9

I don't know why they changed it to MT 1, but for me, a Magus that lets his apprentice pass Gauntlet at MT 1 should be facing a low crime. Not to mention that such an apprentice was likely not helping him in the lab, since one can get exposure xp in MT from helping in the lab.

But I don't want to derail this thread further.

10

There may be gauntleted Bjornaer who barely ever saw an Hermetic lab, right?

11

That section does also say Refinement can start negative, though. However, I showed the necessity of some MT on the other thread:

12

I mean, this overlooks the fact that Ex Misc are necessarily going to have a ton of mages with MT 1, by virtue of taking in Hedge Magi who can only get in once they as adults learn the MT 1, PM 1 and Latin 1.

The corebook is pretty clear. To be a Hermetic Mage, you need MT 1. The corebook says that to build a lab, you need MT 3, but Covenants clarifies that you can have lower MT and build a lab, but it suffers mechanically.

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13

The argument I found most convincing about lab work requiring MT is that MT is asterisked as a skill that cannot be used without a score of 1, and that a lab total does include magic magic theory.

On the other hand, a workshop can be sued (poorly) with skill of 0, though as noted under training "a character must have a minimum score of 2" in order to train someone, so skill 0 is rather pointless to the discussion, kind of like discussing hermetic magi with magic theory 0, as they do not exist.

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14

I love apprentices in stories so this might be a minor personal hangup but I dislike the idea of apprentices being raised during play with greatly different rules than the OG magi in the troupe.

The crunchy side of me loves playing around with detailed character creations, covenant hired tutors, apprentices allowed to access the library during seasons that they aren't being taught, and potentially masters who have figured out that the apprentice's bonus to lab totals won't be needed this season so they can be trained "for free." But that also triggers some dissonance about why the Order isn't very different than it is described to be.

I could have voted with the third choice - leave it to the troupe. I don't have the rules in front of me right now so I can't quote anything but I like the feel of Training for non-academic abilities and Teaching for academic abilities. I do not know if that was the intent but, using that idea, I would be fine with Training in MT in some cases especially in the case of a saga that wants to create a different feel for hedge magic or certain Ex Misc traditions that are less academic.

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15

Nowhere does it say a magus need Magic Theory of 3 or higher to work, or assist, in a lab.
A MT score of 1 is quite sufficient for doing either. This is not a change, but has been the same ever since ArM5 was first published.
MT 3 is needed to set up a regular lab all on your own, and is the recommended minimum for a magus, but no more than that.

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16

A skill that can't be used without at least one xp put into it, actually.
An MT score of 0, and 1 single xp in MT is enough to be able to use the ability, per the regular rules for abilities. (ArM5 p62)

For a gauntleted magus this makes little difference, since they absolutely should have MT 1 or higher anyway, but for fresh apprentices it can matter.

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17

Interestingly, this could be helpful toward explaining why the simple method in the core book fits. Why is it we get better magi at gauntlet so often when we play through apprenticeship? Some of it could be that we tend to assume Teaching rather than Training.

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18

I was about to say "good point"... but then I realized that, sure, magi spending many of their one-on-one seasons doing labwork while Training their apprentices in Magic Theory does result in apprentices with somewhat lower xp totals, but at the same time it tends to produce apprentices with large xp totals in Magic Theory and low xp totals in other Abilities and Arts (and fewer known spells). So in practice it produces results that are further away from, rather than closer to, the simple method from the corebook.

Let me add that while the simple method from the corebook does allot fewer xps to a starting magus than what a "played" apprenticeship might yield, the player can optimize those xps much more than if they were accumulated through actual play (by spending them on exactly what he wants, and getting the exact totals he wants). So, in practice the system is more balanced than what might appear at first sight.

19

Actually, I am not 100% convinced that you can't generate a lab total without MT. Sure, you can't use Magic Theory if you don't have at least 1xp in it. But a Lab Total is different from a characteristic + ability total. There are examples of similar "Totals" that incorporate many different scores, including those of "asterisked" Abilities, and that can be generated even with 0 xp in those Abilities (e.g. Philosophiae and Artes Liberales in Rituals and Ceremonial Casting, or Ceremony use in Divine and Infernal castings).

While the point might seem moot because a magus must have Magic Theory 1 to pass the gauntlet, it might come up in two niche situations. First, can a very young apprentice without Magic Theory do labwork on his own if for some reason his master is not around, and he has nothing better to do? Second, there are ways a magus can lose use of an Ability (e.g. Divine Gloom). Would such a magus still be able to do labwork? Of course, Magic Theory limits the amount of vis one can use, so without it many activities - such as fixing Arcane Connections or performing many types of enchantment are off-limits, but still ... could one learn a new spell on raw Art knowledge alone?

But something I repeatedly pointed out, and some folks still seem to miss. Even if Magic Theory is necessary for most lab work, it's only one of the things necessary. So it's important (I never said otherwise @Red-Shadow-Claws) but it's not as important as if it were the only thing necessary. And crucially, the fact that other things are necessary makes it possible that Magic Theory is used only a small fraction of the time in a season of lab work, unlike Craft: Blacksmith when earning your keep as a blacksmith. It's the difference between milk in a cup of milk (Craft: Blacksmith), and saffron in a saffron risotto (Magic Theory). Sure, saffron is necessary to make a saffron risotto, but it's only a small part of the whole, whereas milk is essentially all there is in a cup of milk.

20

For rituals, there is a special note saying that you can cast rituals even if you have no xp in either Artes Liberales or Philosophae.
For ceremonial casting, you can do it even if you have no xp in one of AL or Philosophae, but not if you don't have any xp in either.
Both of those seem intended as exceptions to the general rule for when an ability can be used.