Can Creo spells be T: Circle?

I ask because I'm making up a Columba and I want to take full advantage of the Ring/Circle Magic virtue. Looking up the guidelines in the core rulebook it seems fairly clear that Creo spells can only be T: Individual or Group. However, on pp.36-37 of HoH:S is the CrIg spell Test of the Flames, which is R: Touch, D: Ring and T: Circle. Is it perhaps the result of a breakthrough or a non-Hermetic design, as it "originated as a ritual ordeal within the Cult of Mithras"? Or is there some leeway here for a munchkin like me to shamelessly exploit the rules?

Possibly just because it's adapted from a non hermetic source yes.. by the rules, you can't.

That said, just check with your SG, they might allow it.. I think it's a little restrictive personally.. as I can see CrAq spells to fill target rooms working fine, as well as a CrIg to fill an entire room with flame.. maybe it's just for power level balance.. unsure..

Well. If you allow creation spells to use the normal targets, despite the rules, you run into some dangerous territory. Target: Boundary, especially, becomes a nightmare.

Some creo spells are exceptions. Creo healing spells are the obvious ones, but anything that doesn't create substance probably counts. Creo Ignem to create light or heat could probably use any target, for example, as could Creo Vim to create some sort of false aura to fool intellego spells.

Ignem has some of the strangest things. A Creo Ignem structure target could heat a wooden building and make it burst into flame, I think, but to create a massive fire to fill a building you'd use individual or group target and some size increases. Example spells often bend the rules - I suggest working from the guidelines, and using the rule-bending of the example spells as sources of ideas for how experiment rolls or non-hermetic research can lead to unusual magic.

I believe this is a slight misconception. The language in the Targets and Creo box on p. 113 leads me to believe that this is only the case for a Creo spell that "actually creates something." Flames (presumably) aren't "things," and thus don't count. Likewise, repairing (including healing) or enhancing natural function don't actually create "things" and so aren't covered by the Individual or Group restriction. Consider The Bountiful Feast which has a target of Boundary.

If yuou are hit by a Pilum of Flame I will tell you that it will be real when you start burning.... Never occured to me that flames are not real in the spell..... It is IGNEM after all, not a Perdo spell that causes random damage. The flames in the spell are what causes the damage, not a cosmetic effect.


Same thing here (in my saga).

Flame is a real thing Jim.

If in doubt you can try some practical test.

You've misunderstood my post. I was essentially making the same point as Ejidoth.

I didn't write that flames aren't "real," I wrote that they (presumably) weren't "things." Flames and heat certainly aren't illusory, but they're not objects, like apples, pebbles, or someone's nose - i.e. solid, tangible things with some physical integrity and continuity over time. You can't pick them up or kick them or whatnot. You can pick up or kick a flaming stick, but that's not the same thing.

This isn't really the place to debate ontology, so if you don't like that explanation, feel free not to use it. Nonetheless, I think it's a pretty good explanation for the spell in the original post, and it allows you to do certain obvious things in the most straightforward manner, e.g. heat one's laboratory in the winter using CrIg with Target: Room.

Well, I never realized that creo spells can only have target individual and group! Have to check on this tonight!
However, I do not see greater problems to use a houserule to change this. As posted here already, there are severel exeptions to it mentioned in the RAW. By the way, I think most of us have enchanted their Infirmary using some CrCo-spell to enhance regeneration.
Any substance created with creo and target circle would perish as soon as it is leaving the circle.
I would rather rule, that creo-rituals can only have taget individual or group. But maybe I do not see some loophole that can lead to terrible consequences in game balance when allowing creo-spells have taget circle. Please enlight me!

How about
CrCo boundry target to enhance strength/... of all within. A hefty ritual, sure but...

Sure, some warping but that is a way to enhance an army all at once.

Having said that, wow!

I think warmth and fire are also things. Why?
If you could use creo with circle you could create tons of gold with a very low level spell. I think there would be other tricky options, too.
Another case: characteristic improvement with circle target would be very cheap.
I think The Bountiful Feast is a mistake.

Well, lets have a look, This would be Base level 45, to increase to stenght by one point to a maximum of +3, target cricle +1, duration circle +1 making a level of 55. Thus it would be a ritual!.
So you can go for Base level 40, to increase to stenght by one point to a maximum of +2, target cricle +1, duration circle +1 making a level of 50.
You have to trace out the circle and anyone leving the area is no longer boosted.
I, for one, would not rely on something like this in a battle. Since you need to let the enemy come to your place to benefit from the spell. This way he must cross the circle, which could then easily be destroyed.
On the other hand to use this as a ritual on all your grogs would be base level 40, to increase to stenght by one point to a maximum of +2, target groupe+1size (abaout 120individuals) +3, duration mom +0, Range voice +2 (as you would not be able to touch 120 people at onec. That's a level 70 spell. Hm, Ok. quite expensive but the receive only minimal warping and the increase is permanent.

But as soon as you remove some of the gold it simply vanishes... So no great bonus, exept you could sit there and watch a pile of gold.... (O.K. This could be nice....) :stuck_out_tongue:

But as soon as you remove some of the gold it simply vanishes... So no great bonus, exept you could sit there and watch a pile of gold.... (O.K. This could be nice....) :stuck_out_tongue:

Actually we have done that in a previous saga. We had our receptions room decorated with stuff that would disappear or turn to rubble if removed from there. Nice to impress the nobility



It's a ritual of course. But the duration is momentary and the effect is permanent.

The duration would be momentary not ring. Creo rituals are permanent.

Well, if I get you right, you want to cast a crea ritual with target circle and duration momentarily? Thus bypassing taget group, which is one magnitude higher.
The amount of substance will not change in comparison to a standart ritual, will it? Thus this spell is just one magnitude higher.
But I do agree about enhancing characteristics will be cheaper and easier to research.
Well, I will have my troupe to decide on this matter next time we meet. Thanks for showing my misinterpretation.

The spell only may have one target.
There are no base size rules or size modifiers to circles. If you want to make a circle with a 10 mile diameter you can do it. It has the same level as creating a circle with 1 meter diameter.

There are spells which could be used with circle target without any problem but some exeptions make this combination too powerful.

Well, you still have to trace that 10-mile circle :laughing:

Sigh...except that the "Permanent" magic would cease the moment the Circle was clearly stated in the Circle guidelines. Nowhere does it say that "Permanent" magic is somehow impervious to the clearly worded limit on circles. The only reason I can think of for so many people choosing to mis-read this is that they really, really want to be able to make stat boosts cheap.