Can you MuVi to change a spells range to Personal?

[Jonathan.Link]

Alright. I concede that this works for now. I'll try and bust it apart later.

Keep in mind, when discussing targets, and Targets, they are referencing two different things. T:is a piece of Ignem, for example. t: is the person who is the intended recipient of the T:Ind piece of Ignem.

I'm also thinking that these spells would be ineffective against the school of Vilano. As the Rego a T: at touch range, you can't Rego something at Personal range, and therefore inflict damage. At best, requisites and so forth would cause the spell to fail or sputter.

I still think, and it's my opinion despite what the Guideline box says, that the event being responded to is the spell having been cast. If you can time spells so perfectly as to change a spell as it is being cast, then I have a hard time seeing how someone couldn't time a spell to arrive before the spell was cast, discombobulating the caster. But that's my opinion, despite the contradictory RAW.

[Tellus]

@Jonathan.Link

I'm also thinking that these spells would be ineffective against the school of Vilano. As the Rego a T: at touch range, you can't Rego something at Personal range, and therefore inflict damage. At best, requisites and so forth would cause the spell to fail or sputter.

I hope no-one suggested it was a "cure-all", certainly

I still think, and it's my opinion despite what the Guideline box says, that the event being responded to is the spell having been cast. If you can time spells so perfectly as to change a spell as it is being cast, then I have a hard time seeing how someone couldn't time a spell to arrive before the spell was cast, discombobulating the caster. But that's my opinion, despite the contradictory RAW.

...and once you're clear about that, I'm happy

[callen]

@Tellus

@callen

I can say I didn't forget that. Note the other part of MuVi that says roughly (serf's parma) just switching parameters cannot change the targets; there is another guideline for that. This is why you have to switch targets. Also, that only affecting the caster part is explicitly excepted elsewhere (see Talismans, and there might be something on clothing). And without accepting this exception, you could just rule the MuVi impossible because you would be creating a Personal spell trying to affect someone else, and without the exception this wouldn't be allowed at all. But again we get past this by also switching the target.

That makes a lot of sense. Changing the target is still MuVi as I recall? Is that a free bonus, or does it take an extra magnitude?

It's not a free bonus because it's a whole extra guideline getting attached. As it is fitting, I would allow attaching that guideline with an extra magnitude. It may well just be better to re-target the spell without changing its Target.

[Tellus]

@callen

It's not a free bonus because it's a whole extra guideline getting attached. As it is fitting, I would allow attaching that guideline with an extra magnitude. It may well just be better to re-target the spell without changing its Target.

Oh it generally is - the only reason to decrease range to personal is if it'll let you dodge MR.
Otherwise it's much easier to just change the target!

[Tugdual]

I'll noble's parma on whether this can be deduced somewhere in RAW, but...

A Target:Personal spells is cast inside the Parma, or it would require to penetrate. EITHER:

A - The targeted spell must penetrate.
Since you can cooperate to MuVi a spell being cast by a friend without having to penetrate his Parma, I would say all other spells are cast outside the Parma. Therefore a spell MuVi'd to Target:Personal must penetrate.
{Note: if forceless casting can be done at the end, and the caster knows you MuVi'd his spell, he could throttle it to a safe penetration.}

B - The MuVi spell must penetrate.
Fine, that spell was cast inside the Parma. Your MuVi must penetrate the Parma to reach it.
{Note: again, maybe you can fizzle a spell at the last second.}

In both cases, you will need to defeat the Parma. And in both cases, your Penetration Total must defeat the targetted spells' Casting Total excess (not Penetration, iirc).

[Nerhesi]

@Tugdual

I'll noble's parma on whether this can be deduced somewhere in RAW, but...

A Target:Personal spells is cast inside the Parma, or it would require to penetrate. EITHER:

A - The targeted spell must penetrate.
Since you can cooperate to MuVi a spell being cast by a friend without having to penetrate his Parma, I would say all other spells are cast outside the Parma. Therefore a spell MuVi'd to Target:Personal must penetrate.
{Note: if forceless casting can be done at the end, and the caster knows you MuVi'd his spell, he could throttle it to a safe penetration.}

B - The MuVi spell must penetrate.
Fine, that spell was cast inside the Parma. Your MuVi must penetrate the Parma to reach it.
{Note: again, maybe you can fizzle a spell at the last second.}

In both cases, you will need to defeat the Parma. And in both cases, your Penetration Total must defeat the targetted spells' Casting Total excess (not Penetration, iirc).

a) Spell do not originate inside of Parma, otherwise Unraveling the Fabric would not work without a special exemption.
b) Personal Range spells do not need to penetrate. Now this is where it becomes tricky - does it state this by RAW without any other stipulation?

[Jonathan.Link]

@Nerhesi

a) Spell do not originate inside of Parma, otherwise Unraveling the Fabric would not work without a special exemption.
b) Personal Range spells do not need to penetrate. Now this is where it becomes tricky - does it state this by RAW without any other stipulation?

@Ars Magica

Spells cast with Personal range do not have to overcome magic resistance. Spells cast with Touch range, even if cast by the maga on herself, do.

Unravelling affects the spell that is cast and either on it's way (as in a D:Mom) or a spell that already exists and is functioning with a longer duration. Or that's how I view it working...