Can you MuVi to change a spells range to Personal?

Kind of curious if this guidelines is out there. Was still in my dirty metamagic mode of thinking and so the following popped up:

Changing a BoAF or a Critical Wound Causing spell, or a change into a gold-fish spell for example, from range Voice to range Personal. As Personal spells bypass Parma, the results would be usually disastrous.

Do the guidelines exist?

Sure -- within some limits.

If the spell's original Range is Eye or Touch, just use the same guideline as Wizard's Reach (the guideline deals equally with an increase or decrease in power, so for the same cost of one range increment you can get one range decrement). Your MuVi spell must be form specific and roughly the same magnitude as the original spell (the guidelines are a bit confusing about "equal to or less then" and "less then"). Easy.

If the spell's original Range is Voice or more, you could use the "next" guideline (as above, but you'd need roughly twice the affected spell's magnitude). This allows you to completely rework a spell, including changing Arts, as long as it stays within two magnitudes of the original. Easy, but expensive.

IIRC, a spell with range personal can't have a target greater than part. You might consider whether or not you want to keep this restriction when doing a Mu Vi.

Um...why would your maga want to cause herself a Critical Wound or hit herself with a ball of Abysmal Flame?

I would think of this as an aggressive spell. Cast this on a magus about to roast you or your friends with a BOAF and there we go. Quite a nice spell for an item, I would say.

I think you're missing the intent - the impression I get is the original poster wants to screw up an enemy spellcaster's attack by having a mastered spell they can fast-cast as a defense to shorten the range. If dropped from voice to touch, their spell will fall short. If dropped to personal, it should affect the original caster.

Erik> I looked up personal range on ArM5 p.111 and it states for personal "The target is thus never larger than Individual" so I presume individual is the default.

As for personal range spells automatically bypassing Parma, I think that depends on your house ruling of Parma. Every game I've played in ruled that you didn't need to penetrate with personal range spells as you would automatically suppress your Parma, no concentration roll needed, for personal range spells. However, if you're intending for your spell to have range but something else stops it and makes the magic never leave your skin, you could still have your Parma at full power if you're expecting a magical battle. So, the effectiveness of this as an enemy-slayer depends very much on your house ruling for Parma.

However, a Wizard's Shortfall (opposite of Wizard's Boost) could be very entertaining to watch, and if mastered for fast-casting a great defense.

Don't think it works, to be honest.
Fast cast defense (and this is my understanding based on how it is written in the RAW, responds to the effect, which I've had several discussions about said understanding, but I stick to it), so the effect is already created and on its way by the time the spell goes off. I don't think it would affect the original caster, but it should be sufficient to cause the spell to fail/sputter since it no longer has a valid target, if changed to R:Per... It's an effective defense, but not an effective counter spell which causes the effect to rebound on the original caster. YSMV and all that.

I think Jonathan Link is right. You would also have to make the spell switch target a la Spell Net from ArM4's WGRE.


I don't see why it wouldn't work.

  1. BoAF is R: Voice
  2. If you can fast-cast, you can affect another magus' spell with MuVi (you'll have to penetrate his penetration though).
    2b) No requirement is made of the co-operation of the other caster
  3. MuVi allows you to change a parameter by 2 steps, up or down - Personal is 2 steps below Voice

It has been previously suggested here (and commented a bit following).

mind you, fast-casting a MuVi spell to take down another spell by 2 steps is hard - if I recall correctly, you can't actually do this with BoAF simply because you need to match twice it's level, which would be 70+ and as such necessarily a ritual.

It's much more doable with eg. PoF, but you'd still need to penetrate the original caster's penetration with a spell twice his level.

you forgot:
"and R: pers spells need not be targetted, because they can only* affect the caster"

  • ... and what he's wearing, but the more I see R: Pers be used, the more strictly I prefer to run it.

IMO, they all (MuVi) spells require coordination and cooperation of some sort, because of that.

And then we get into well, I'm going to time my spell (by fast casting) so it completes at the same time as the incoming spell. If you can time it that well (and I'm not saying it's possible[1]) in your saga, then you can cast offensive spells at the magus interrupting his incoming PoF or BoAF before your spell is cast with an Invisible Sling of Vilano or something with fast casting.
Blah. Yuck.
Fast Cast is a response to an event. The event has already happened. The spell has been cast and is on its way, the crossbow bolt has been released and is on its way. Deal with the event via fast casting.

[1] I have problems with that as it turns Fast Casting into an opportunity to engage in escalating die rolls it makes combat messier, IMO. Magus A wins initiative, Magus B can get a fast cast spell off successfully preempting Magus A, no wait, Magus A can out fast-cast Magus B and preempt Magus B's preemption. No wait, Magus B can out fast cast Magus A and himself...

So you defy all forms of (MuVi-based) metamagic, based on this opinion?
This despite the clear phrasing in the box of MuVi guidelines

(Emphasis added.)

Don't just read the base levels, read the entire box of guidelines - there's sometimes a lot of info in that text.

No. Or rather, not necessarily.

Notice how p. 83 (of ArM5) talks about working out what sort of spell is being cast, in the context of fast cast defences?
To me at least, that looks like you start fast casting your defence before your opponent finishes his spell.
The crossbow bolt is not a bullet - it actually moves slowly enough to give you a little reaction time - but preferbly you start casting when the guard aims the crossbow.

Things happen while other things are also in the process of occuring. Don't let initiative blind you, it's just an artificial rule we use, not the actual timing.

I did, however, attempt to refute that before it was even mentioned. If you can cast a spell, to interfere with originally cast spell with a MuVi fast cast spell of your own, why not cast another spell that can interfere magus? It's a slippery slope. Further, until the spell is cast, I can't see that the magus casting the MuVi spell knows exactly whether a spell is coming at him.

Magus A is casting a spell.
Magus B is casting the MuVi counter spell, fast casting, etc.

Does Magus B then have to penetrate the Vim resistance of Magus A, while he's drawing in the mystical energies and molding them into the spell he will then release? Are those energies then within the Parma of Magus A? If so, why? If not, why?

My general rubric is to treat fast casting as a defense, primarily, or an opportunity for mutually assured destruction, at best. When we try and be clever with pushing the rules to change that Pilum of Fire cast by Magus range into a personal range attack on himself...? And then what's his defense? Does he get one? Should he get one? If your the player and I'm the SG, do you want me doing unto the PCs as you have done unto the NPC?

This is one of those things, that if it works for the players, the players may not like the end result.

You did, and I disagree with your argument :slight_smile:

This is very close to saying you want to have acknowledged you won the point. Fine you won the point.
What does it solve? :smiley:

It's a system If you understand it in a way that appears to be legal in the rules...then what. Where does MR come into play? Should it? If it doesn't, are players going to like it when some smart-butt NPC comes along and starts bending their spells on them?

I would agree with Tellus that you can fast cast a Muto Vim spell to change your opponent's as it's being cast (precisely on the basis of the quoted passage).

However, I do think Jonathan.Link raises a valid point when calling attention to MR -- and not just for fast-cast defenses.
Should the MuVi caster penetrate the MR of the other caster, since a MuVi spell affects a spell while it's being cast?

On the one hand, I'd say no, since the corebook does not mention it explicitly (while it mentions the need for it to penetrate the target's penetration) and since to affect your own spell you need R:Touch -- meaning the spell is already "outside" you. On the other hand, if your own spell were already "outside" your Parma, it would have to cross it back to affect the caster at Per:Range -- which it doesn't, so it's a very strong point in favour of MuVi having to penetrate the other caster's MR. Hmmm. Opinions?

I can say I didn't forget that. Note the other part of MuVi that says roughly (serf's parma) just switching parameters cannot change the targets; there is another guideline for that. This is why you have to switch targets. Also, that only affecting the caster part is explicitly excepted elsewhere (see Talismans, and there might be something on clothing). And without accepting this exception, you could just rule the MuVi impossible because you would be creating a Personal spell trying to affect someone else, and without the exception this wouldn't be allowed at all. But again we get past this by also switching the target.

Oh, also, if you want to catch the spell before it has left the opponent's Parma Magica (reason Personal doesn't need to penetrate while your own Touch spell on you does), I would say the MuVi spell would have to get through the opponent's Parma Magica. Otherwise it is too far to affect the caster via Personal.

A lot of this has been discussed already. You have to penetrate the penetration of the of the original spell.
R: Pers spells do not have to penetrate.

From the above, no.

Don't know about Tellus, but my players' started doing it to the NPCs so why shouldn't the NPCs do it to them?

Also, it's not terribly easy - to bend a PoF like that takes about a level 40 spell as I recall, and needs to penetrate the penetration of the original.

I see it differently. Needs to penetrate his MR, not penetrate penetration of the original spell. Spells, by RAW do not have MR. I need to find that...but I know I've read it somewhere...

If a sword held by a magus (who wields swords) is protected by the magus's MR, then so should the fluid Vis he is pulling together to effect his spell, IMO.

Not really. But I do want you to be clear (as you usually are) when you're gong by rules, and when you're going by opinions.

One important element here, is that we have to assume the arguments are made purely based on RAW except in the cases the poster clearly indicates "this is not RAW, this is based on house rules (or opinion)", in which case I'm likely to try to have the author justify this variance.

In the case above, you give an opinion, and when RAW is quoted at you, you maintain the opinion (which is fine) but you seemed to be repeating an argument that to me made no sense, when compared to RAW.

That makes a lot of sense. Changing the target is still MuVi as I recall? Is that a free bonus, or does it take an extra magnitude?

As far as I can tell, not by RAW, but I agree it makes sense.

Spells do indeed not (in general have MR. The need to penetrate the penetration is a specific feature of MuVi.