A Vim spell to send the spell back to the caster?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Is it even possible to do this? To send the spell back in the face of the caster?

Even though I've played ArM for years and years through several editions I only just read Mirror of Opposition. That spell just cause the target spell to have the opposite effect.
How about one - Muto Vim most likely - which changes the spell to have R:Per rather than what the caster intends?

Or is it a Rego Vim effect to deflect the spell and hit the caster with it?

[Edit: addition] Or would it be using Muto Vim guidelines but with perdo instead of Muto if the spell was designed to cut a R:Sight spell down to Personal, which is more than the two magnitudes Muto can encompass without needing to use perdo (or Creo for the other direction). Or perhapsne ven Mu(Pe)Vi???

2

It's actually already listed among the MuVi guidelines in ArM5. There's also a thread specifically about this from several weeks ago, probably 2-3 months now.

Chris

3

Huh! Hidden in plain sight in the text it really does say 'change target' as part of the guideline for 'Significantly Change'.

How to treat changes of more than two magnitudes remains though...Does such changes make it PeVi or Mu(Pe)Vi?

4

Cr(Mu)Vi or Pe(Mu)Vi would qualify (or if you prefer: Mu(Cr)Vi or Mu(Pe)Vi).

5

Pity it is so difficult, you need to more than double the level of the target spell. And you need to have your Penetration exceed the target spell's. And you need to fast cast it.
Not gonna happen!

But then again, it is very powerful to just send whatever the enemy is casting back in his face, so perhaps the balance is ok...

6

Beat penetration, certainly.
Fast cast? not necessarly. You may just delay your action and interrupt (if you are using LoM rules).

Edit: however, you are not forced to go for a requisite version.

A simple MuVi with third base is sufficient enough to deflect anyone spell's.

Turn his "I'm a king of fire" spell into a "that is a spark of fire" is the only application of such Mu(Pe)Vi I see....

7

Changing the target (small "t") of the spell would suffice for most combat applications. It's not necessary to change the Range from Sight (say) to Personal, as (most) people can see themselves.

8

But to affect a spell to have a different target (small "t) than the caster intends, is that a superficial change? Significant change? Or Total Change?
And cna such a spell dictate the new target, or will it just hit something else?

9

Actually my favorite is to change range from Voice (most combat spells) to Personal.
Spells that create a dangerous substance (CrIg, CrAq (acid) and the like) can even be just changed to R: Touch.
Work too you know.

10

Different target for MuVi would be Significant Change, base guideline can change a spell of (lvl of MuVi+1 mag). And it still needs to penetrate. I assume the MuVi caster chooses new target.

If I can't send the spell back at the caster I might as well just deflect is using the much easier ReVi guidelines.

11

Personal spells don't have to penetrate.

Nice trick, Tellus. Will use it for my specialist vim NPC.

12

That's true. But the weak point about this tactic is if the enemy caster does not cast at R:Voice, so a single magnitude knocked off isn't enough.

Oh yeah, that's right! You need two magnitudes knocked off to make Voice into Per to avoid Penetration. Then again, if the enemy caster's Penetration is good enough, he might hit himself after all on R:Touch

13

You've just answered your own question, haven't you?

Huh? Did I miss something? What guidelines?

14

Deflect = avoid getting hit! Spell won't hit someone else.

HoH:Soc p129 "ReViGen, Sustain or supress a spell of a specific type cast by another with level less than (level +2 magnitudes) of the Vim spell". It needs to be specified as for type like "Hermetic Terram magic" or "Shamanic spirit control". The +2 magnitudes takes the spell from Per to Voice, so in effect the deflection spell just needs to beat.
Although this does seem a bit odd since rules for fast-cast defence (improvised) needs to only reach half level of spell to deflect. Why is Vim less efficient? Is it because it is Formulaic?

That would be the easiest way to deflect specific magic. Like "Unravelling the Fabris..." is for PeVi
More generalized deflection is harder, like "Winds of Mundane Silence" is harder to pull off then "Unravelling..."
ArM5 p161 liste for ReViGen "Sustain or supress a spell cast by another with level less than half (level+5 magnitudes)". Again, 2 magnitudes takes it to Voice. So spell+3 Magnitudes deflect any spell with level half of this Vim spell or less.

15

My bad!

Muto Vim to change target (small "t") needs to exceed target spell level
Rego Vim to deflect spell is about the same.

These two options are almost identical.

But my point was that it is enormously difficult (and so it should be!) to make a spell hit the magus casting it!

16

Ultraviolet, where from do you get that Muto and Rego can do the same thing?

From your guideline, I note: "sustain or supress". Applied in two spells: maintening the demanding spell (sustain) or wizard's handiwork (supress).
None of them change the target. They temporary extend/reduce the duration, that's all.

17

A spell is cast on you.

A Muto Vim spell can alter the spell to affect a different target than you

A Rego Vim spell can deflect it

In either case the spell does not affect you. This is what I meant.

But the odd thing is that rules for fast-cast improvised spells say that ½ level is enough to exceed if you just want to avoid the spell, and exceeding level means spell is deflected in a spectacular way.
Apparently it is easier if you Spontaneous Cast rather than use Formulaic...

18

No, ReVi can supress it. Not the same as deflecting.
Yes, I read your post above where you explain what you meant by "deflect", but since it gives the rest of us the wrong mental picture, it's an unfortunate choice of word.

As for the "half level" for spont defences.. legacy artifact - not based on guidelines.

19

Hmmm, so can one - or can one not - invent a ReVi formulaic spell, specified by type lile Hermetic Terram and so on, to fast-cast as defence, to avoid getting hit by a spell?
"Supressing the Wizard's Handiwork" specifically doesn't work on a D:Mom spell, but this is perhaps the most important Duration to supress like most combat spells.
But the guidelines don't prohibit it. Is the above spell perhaps a legacy spell from back in a time where active counterspells wern't in fashion?
The Line of Pralix bit in HoH:Soc around p 129 specifically lists a forlumaic ReVi spell which can prevent a specific kind of magic being cast for D:Sun. Which I might say was quite effective against certain Witches recently for my Pralician.
But it'd be nice to be able to break up spells as they are cast, with D:Mom on the spell, effectively saving the caster against a hit from a spell.

20

If a spell cast on you is momentary, you basically have two choice with vim:

  • destroy it => perdo
  • alter it => muto

Muto will require you to act when the spell is formed, before it is cast and that it's not a spontaneous spell. You would have to penetrate the spell penetration.
Perdo will need a beating initiative (but so would Muto in fact) and you beat the level with the die roll. You wouldn't have to penetrate the spell.

RegoVim doesn't work on momentary, because you canno't suppress it. Suppressing cannot be destroying because that's perdo, and there is nothing to suppress: momentary is the shortest duration.

You may be tricky, and create a false "you" (whom he would think he is targeting), acting as an intangible tunnel on him, using ReVi anchored to a Imaginem spell. That may or not work depending on SGs.

And, yes, counterspelling is something where spontaneous players are better, because it's essentially that: "pouf" (i create the perfect "anti pouf") !
"paaaf" (quick, now a perfect "anti paaaf")

If your enemy is smart, he willtry to cast multiple spells in the round (requires high score for multiple fastcasting in finesse), multicasting (not IMO since I intend multiple target for it), or even items effects triggered all together. He could obfucast his spells, shroud them, mutovim them to divide them...

Or, he will try to counterspell your counterspell.
I have a NPC whose specialty is exactly this: casting a spell very quickly (we are talking of initiative rank 18 or more), then counterspelling (he has some formulaics for it and a focus for spontaneous) your counterspell, with fastcast initiative of 30 and more (using LoM rules).

A real hermetic combat is usually... deadly.