Canteen goodness

I'm away from my books at the moment, so I need help with a base.

My Maga might be trying to create a device [wooden box: a canteen] that creates a complete set of silver cutlery for the Grogs use with Moon duration, so that they

a) Think better of the Magi
b) Might get some health benefits of silver service

She could just buy/shape some silver, but I want to be magical because that might be cool

I thought about duration Sun, but people often eat during sundown, so I decided against having forks* dissappear in your hands

what would the Base be for creating Knives/Forks/Spoons?

Secondly A finesse roll will be needed to create the objects, how does one go about giving the device a good enough score for this (and only this) action, as It feels wrong to rely on the finesse score of the butler.

Secondly if I wanted to include the ability to change the design/moulding on the cutlery[just purely cosmetic, so a fork is still a shadow of the Platonic ideal of a table fork, not a pitchfork], is there a MuVi effect(with a finesse roll obviuosly) that I could cast once on the box later, or would this ability have to be included on creation?

Any advice welcome!


*The campaign is in the Levant so I have access to forks!

Creating silver would fallunder "Base 15: Create precious metal"

And if you want to create a full set at once, you will need T:Group. Along with R:Touch and D:Moon, you end up with a level 45...

A base metal, like pewter, would "only" be level 35, as it uses Base 5. Stone or glass would be Base 3.

By comparison, bone would have been Base 15 (Base 5, +2 for treated and processed), while wood would have been Base 3 (Base 1, +2 for treated and processed).

If the item creates a specific item(s), I would not call for a Finesse roll. The exact shape of the knives, spoons and forks would have been determined when enchanting the item and always remain the same.

I call for Finesse in a spell whenever the exact result can change from one casting to another -- giving the caster some flexibility. In this case, you want a specified shape, so no Finesse required IMHO.

Technically all items created need a finesse roll to determine how good they are, see page 77 of the 5th edition text.

There aren't any rules for putting finesse into an item, and I'm personally leery of doing so. Grogs can develop finesse, I don't see a problem with them doing the finesse roll for item creation.

Alternatively, since the magus is doing the work, and he's trying to create an item in the lab, I'd lean towards him making the finesse roll and having that finesse total built into the device, so that it's always creating the exact same setting every time it is used. So, for this device, I'd give the magus the option of building the Int+Finesse roll into the device, the first roll can be a non-stress roll, and if he is dissatisfied with the result for some reason, he can make a second roll that is a stressful roll, but might ruin the device if that second finesse roll botches.

The only thing I might add to Arthur's thorough and correct evaluation, is that some troupes might ask for an extra magnitude for "intricate details" or some such.
I personally wouldn't, unless the cutlery is supposed to be especially fancy, but the possibility exists.

Technically correct, but the same paragraph mentions that this is based on familiarity and complexity. As the following sentence says, "Any magus can create bread or cloth."

So in the case of forks, spoons and knives, having a Finesse roll is a mere formality. I'd probably go with a Int + Finesse + simple die against an Ease Factor of 3, which means no magus would fail that.

My point was that the shape of the created forks/spoons/knives could be established once, when the item is enchanted, foregoing the need for a Finesse roll every time the item is used.

Why on earth use D:Moon? Why not D:Sun and a lot of uses/day for the device? The cutlery is used for only a short while at a time, longer than D:Diameter.

I was going to say "Aha! A use for the Nyktophylax* virtue!", only then I realised that having your forks disappear during your midday meal instead wasn't that much of an improvement.

[*Nyktophylax is a minor virtue in the Tremere section of HoH:TL which means your sun duration magic ends at midday / midnight rather than dawn/dusk. It's theoretically useful when working with other people, but is mostly just flavour.]

this is the sort of thing I was looking for, but can anyone balpark how many magnitudes it could add?

Also anyone have any ideas about the software sidegrade suggestion?


I wouldn't charge anything extra. I only add an increase in magnitude for intricacy if it were necessary for the final product to be extraordinarily beautiful.

Have ONE set of cutlery (one knife, one spoon, not sure on how much use forks got) built into the box. The spell duplicates the sample cutlery in the box and you just waive the Finesse roll through the power of GM fiat. I'd do similar things if magi developed a spell to create something incredibly specific, and only that thing without variation. A spell that makes marble busts of people should require Finesse rolls. A spell that makes marble busts of Darius ex Flambeau as he was in 1220 should pretty much have the Finesse roll built in.

oh it's got to be beautiful, it has to impress any visiting Jerbiton.


Oh, yeah.

Then what about D: Conc with Modification: Item maintains Concentration?

Generally speaking, afaik nowhere is it discussed how much "flexibility" a given Creo spell can have (altho' there are some specific to particular CrFo guidelines). Thus, if you have a CrAn Base Guideline that can "create a mammal" or a CrIm that can create the illusion of same, it's never specifically defined in the Guidelines whether that's "any mammal" or only "X specific mammal", etc. (Tho', again, some spell examples strongly imply one or the other, depending on the TeFo combo.)

So first it's up to you (SG and/or Troupe) to answer that question - if you have a CrTe effect to "create metal", how narrowly defined is that? How much "flexibility" does +1 magnitude add? If it creates enough metal for a hand-held tool or weapon, does that have to be defined when the spell is created? Could that same amount of metal become a cup or a plate or a (large) key or a (small) anvil or a hammer or a metal wedge or a perfectly round metal ball, or anything of the same mass (and general complexity) as needed at the time?

If the same effect needs to be further defined, and it then is defined to create "a knife", can that then be anything from a broad bowie knife to a narrow stiletto to a serrated breadknife to an edge-less butterknife to a letter opener to a surgeon's instrument to a parchment-maker's tool, and anything/everything in between?

Many (most?) Troupes tend to rule (intentionally or tacitly) that "a spell effect" can only produce 1 (more or less) specific thing, which is defined when the effect is created. +1 magnitude might give a few (related?) variations (dog, cat, skunk, fox?), and +3 might allow any/all - ysmv on specifics, these are just off-the-cuff possibilities. (And I specifically include both those Forms b/c often their flexibility is interpreted differently by SG's/Players, as tho' the rules for spell creation work differently for Imagonem. You don't have to have one rule for all Forms, but you should consider all of them before you do make your ruling. Ysmv.)

And, exactly, the other end of this same discussion is how specific an effect can be without Finesse. If the mage wants to invent a CrIm spell that, specifically and exactly, mimics an actual person - can they achieve that in the laboratory so that the accuracy of the final effect is both guaranteed and complete? Myself, I would rule "Sure!" - if the effect is intentionally designed and invented to be limited that way (and perhaps with some +magnitude(s) for "detail/complexity"), it's both in-genre and not unbalancing. And if you agree with that possibility, then no Finesse roll would be required - the effect is carbon-copy identical each time, b/c it was designed that way.

(Altho' a valid question might be "How does the mage know?" - to have a perfect copy of a specific thing, a model/image of that thing should really be referenced, somehow. Merely making a non-flawed set of silverware is more generic, and would fall under the broad umbrella of a "Platonic Ideal" that is generally granted to magi when they Creo a common item.)

Alternately, the inventing mage could be required to make a Finesse roll during the invention process for the final effect - one shot, do or die, and that determines "how good" the final quality of the effect is.

(However, if +1 magnitude can add "additional detail", I myself see no reason why that "detail" can't be defined as contributing directly to final quality rather than mere cosmetic intricacy, as approp for the object(s) in question.)

Just curious - where is this bonus suggested in the rules?

I'm not sure if it's mentioned in the rules but there is an anecdotal connection between real silver tableware and good health. I've heard it as Silver kills germs, it is (was) easier to clean, trace nutrients, weird relation to colloidal silver's alleged holistic benefits. To my knowledge it's all been debunked. But if the belief stretches back long enough it might fall under the Medieval Paradigm.

and even if it doesn't it isn't impossible for some magus to believe it and enchant an object accordingly. I suspect there may well be an attribution to silver of good health, because only the wealthy can afford silver, and they tend to live a healthier lifestyle...

Not debunked. Colloidal Silver does kill germs. Just not as efficiently or miraculously as holistic healers will have you believe. Plus it also permanently alters your skin and eye pigmentation. In enough time, it will make you look like an alien. But silver does have medicinal properties. I recall one time after suffering severe burns, I was prescribed a silver sulfadiazine cream I had to use to prevent infection.

I was going on the old tale of the Knights Hospitalier using silver implements in their work, and I thught it might have been mentioned in Art and Academe, but my books are still in a different city, so couldn't check.