Carmina for an learned magician (for evaluation)

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Salvete Sodales!

I just finished creating a learned magician character (I will eventually put him in the character designs thread) and created various spells for him. I wonder whether these spells are ok, so I am waiting for comments.

  • Incorporation of Bestial Forms (SuMa 25, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.): Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of Shapechanging and the corresponding ability at a level of 4. The shapes are fixed when the charm is developed, here salmon, dog, magpie and eagle.
    (base 20, Diam. +1)

  • Incorporation of Further Bestial Forms (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of Puissant Shapechanging. This includes two further animal forms fixed while developing the charm (here cat and horse).
    (Base 10, Diam. +1)

  • Strengthening the Versatility of the Body (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.) Gives the target a bonus of +3 for Shapeshifting rolls.
    (Base 10, Diam. +1)

  • Gift of the Bard (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of Enchanting Music and the corresponding ability at a level of 4.
    (Base 10, Diam. +1)

  • Gift of Bardic Mastery (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of Puissant Enchanting Music.
    (Base 10, Diam +1)

  • Invocation of the Muses of Music (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the target a bonus of +3 for Enchanting Music rolls.
    (Base 10, Diam +1)

  • Deafness to the Siren Song (TuMa 15, R: Touch, Dur.:smiley:iam., T:Ind.) The Ease Factor for Enchanting Music Rolls against the target is raised by 15.
    (Base 5, Touch +1, Diam. +1)

  • Acquiring the Powers of the Entrancer (SuMa 25, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of entrancement and the corresponding ability at a level of 4.
    (Base 20, Diam. +1)

  • Gift of the Master Entrancer (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of Puissant Entrancement.
    (Base 10, Diam. +1)

  • Strengthening the Will of the Entrancer (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the target a bonus of +3 for Entrancement rolls.
    (Base 10, Diam. +1)

  • Raising the Walls of the Mind (TuMa 15, R: Touch, Dur.:smiley:iam., T:Ind.)The Ease Factor for Entrancement Rolls against the target is raised by 15.
    (Base 5, Touch +1, Diam +1)

  • Gift of the Seer (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of second sight and the corresponding ability at a level of 4.
    (Base 10, Diam +1)

  • Gift of Enhanced Clairvoyance (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of Puissant Second Sight.
    (Base 10, Diam +1)

  • Strengthening of the Mystical Eye (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the target a bonus of +3 for Second Sight rolls.
    (Base 10, Diam. +1)

  • Invocation of the Protection of St. Florian (TuSa 15, R: Touch, Dur.:smiley:iam, T:Ind.) Gives the target a soak bonus of +10 against fire.
    (Base 5, Touch +1, Diam. +1)

  • Mystical Mastery of artes liberales (SuFa 15, R: Per., Dur.:smiley:iam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the general virtue Puissant artes liberales.
    (Base 10, Diam. +1)

  • Luck of the Gambler (SuFa 10, R: Per, Dur.: Diam., T: Ind.) Gives the target a bonus of +3 for luck related rolls.
    (Base 5, Diam. +1)

  • Invoking the Gift of St. Francis (SuMa 15, R: Per., Dur.: Diam., T:Ind.)Gives the Target the supernatural virtue of Animal Ken and the corresponding ability at a level of 4.
    (Base 10, Diam +1)

So, what do you think? Thank you in advance.

Vale,
Alexios ex Miscellanea

2

OK, here are my comments.

This spell only gives the caster the Shapeshifter Virtue. I would have shapechanging limited to four animals in a category: avian, canine, feline, pescine, etc. Also, two minutes is pretty short, but your casting total may be too low for Sun Duration.

Same comments as above. I would make sure that the additional forms were in the same category as the base Shapeshifting Virtue. I would not allow the character to add +2 to his Shapeshifting for the Puissant Virtue and the +3 for the Strengthening the Versatility of the Body, but instead the caster should only get the greater of the two bonuses.

The rest of the charms seem fine, but the two minute duration may be difficult to manage in play. Also, you may want to change the Range to Touch on some of these.

3

I don't have my books with me, but I'm almost certain that bonuses from Puissant (blank) just add to casting/ability totals without improving the character's actual ability/art score.

4

I think puissant adds to the ability. it's not a "casting" bonus.

5

Puissant its a virtue, so I think it should stack with the +3 from succurro.

If they don't stack, it would mean that a character with a puisant virtue would not be able to benefir from any succurro's that give a bonus to that ability, and I can't recall having read this anywhere.

6

Puissant (Ability) - You are particularly adept with one Ability, and get +2 to all totals which include it. = ArM5 Core

Based on the above, my understandng is that Puissance(?) gives a bonus to using the ability, but does not improve the character's Score in that ability. If you choose to play it differently, that's fine. I was just commenting on what I saw as potential error.

~ Gremlin44

7

I'm not saying that a charm can't stack with a Puissant Virtue.

The rules for Learned Magicians say that charms granting the same bonus cannot stack, instead only the more powerful charm takes effect. If you think that these are different bonuses, then you can allow them to stack. To me, they are the same type of bonus and should not stack. To allow them to stack is a munchkin move in my view. But, you can play it however you would like.

8

Don't get me wrong, but I just reread the chapter and I could not find this anywhere, if you could be so kind as to point me to an exact page or paragraph in the book.
What I do recall is that Viktir runes do not stack with each other, which is stated in the viktir rules, and then again on the description of the first rune that gives a bonus on page 128, but neither the charm descriptions nor the description of the powers of the learned mathematici say anything about stacking, or at least I couldn't find any mention of the word.

It's not a question of wether I think they are different bonusses or not, it's a question of wether they are different bonusses or not, and from a rules point of view I see no evidence that would indicate that they would not stack with each other.

9
10

You can't cast a +1 bonus four times to get a +4 bonus. Do you think you can cast Gift of the Bear's Fortitude on someone four times for a +12 Soak? It's explicitly stated in the Charm of Protection Against Achilles' Bane, but it's also a general rule of common sense. It's also explicitly stated in Mythic Herbalism.

11

Puissant (Ability) (p. 48 ): Replace the first sentence of the text with: "You are particularly adept with one Ability, and add 2 to its value whenever you use it. Note that you do not, in general, use an Ability when learning it, teaching it, or writing about it."
It's from the errata atlas-games.com/arm5/arm5errata.php

12

Salvete Sodales!

First of all, thank you for the replies. I had started wondering whether nobody was interested or the spells were just fine.

@John Post:
This spell list (plus some already listed in the book) was done for the character I posted in the character thread. They are the result of trying to copy the abilities of other minor Hedgies, and as shapechangers etc. usually can't confer their powers to others he also chose Personal range. Sure, in game he might soon consider to reinvent a touch range spell - at least after he has improved his arts a bit.
The sun duration is more of a energy saving method. Usually you don't cast these spells in a hurry, so there is enough time to use a 'Second wind' spell on them. By the way: I am a bit uncertain about the level tat the boosting spell needs. Would I need a SuMa spell of level 25 or one of level 30 to boost the 'Incorporation of the Bestial Forms' to sun duration? The wording in the spell description is a bit unclear.

About the stacking of 'Puissant Skill' and bonus on the dice roll I was not certain myself. Personally I think these to be two sufficiently different effects - be good at doing something and having a deeper understanding versus having luck when using it. But as these have technically very similar effects I also see good reason not to allow the stacking of them.
Seems to be one of those rule parts one has to find a common interpretation in each group.

Vale,
Alexios ex Miscellanea

13

I don't think you can, and I never said you could do so. What I said was completely different and you are unsuccesfully trying to twist my words.
I still think that you can cast for example a charm of quickness (+3 quickness related rolls), and then a charm of single weapon (for a +3 to single weapon). So that when you defend you'll get a +6 bonus. Because the bonuses come from a different place.

I also think that the bonus you get from puissant stacks with this one, or are you meaning to tell me that the bonus you would get from the toughness virtue would not stack with achiles bane? Because this is exactly what you are saying: Bonus from charm does not stack with bonus from virtue, and the same example you quoted (achiles bane), explicitly states that it stacks with the tough virtue, so I really don't see where the problem is.

As you said is just common sense, nothing more, nothing less.

Btw, I've been quoting some names from the book, I don't know if I'm breaking any rules by quoting them, If I did I apologice, and I'll edit ASAP.