Cathars, heresy and dualism in ArM

[Jakob_Ryngen]

@One Shot

Given that there are many ways to incorporate Catharism into a campaign, and tmk none is advertised or demanded in ArM5, your line above otherwise just looks like a rant: too inconsiderate to discuss even with a behind

Ok, sorry for ranting. But let me conclude then. RoP does not describe cathars as "wrong" imho. The authors are rather driven to make all the "real" medieval religions fit into one divine context. This ambition works better with Judaism/Christianity/Islam and it seems even with Zoroastrianism than with the dualistic heresies such as Catharism and Bogomilism because they believe that god who created the world was evil. If the creator of the world had one divine son or not is not as fundamentally dividing as if he was "good" or not. I can fix it with saying that Catharism actually isn't like that in ArM but to me that seems wrong. As God and the Devil (or the Devil and God) can not be one the same playing ground I must fix this somehow or the Divine Realm will collapse. The Holy Seat in Rome just can not project an Aura that is sacred to the Cathars. So my conclusion is that the Cathars basically are right. The world was created by a lesser God and he did not do a very good job. This would explain why there are other powers in the world such as the Infernal, Magic and Faerie. This lesser god might not be as bad as the Devil - I would rather make him the God who speaks in Exodus 20:5 and Deuteronomy 5:9;

"For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me".

If the Church is his instrument on earth the Albigensian crusade suddenly makes perfect sense. If I was a game creator I might not take this path in order to not offend some potential buyers and indeed this might be within the paradigm of ArM. I would have the creator of the world the "Undergod" and the creator of the spirit the "Overgod". This actually fits well with some theological movements such as gnostisism and Mithraism (if we are to believe Ulansey's The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World) even if it might not fit with the theology of the average Mythic Europe peasant. The Undergod is jealous of the Overgod though and wants to be more like him/her so he can actually be good at times to and have the angels covering up for him (and not telling anyone the truth about this matter if they happened to know it). It is not really clear what "the son of Man"/Jesus(or Mithras)-figure is as both the Cathars and the Christians believe him to be good but I don't have to explain that in order for the world to work. I will not explain this to my players but they will notice that the Undergod (disguised as LORD, your God) actually is against the Cathars even though they actually are better people than most. The Overgod is unable/unwilling to save the Perfecti because there is no point in making their souls stay in an imperfect realm. Their powers will make them see and save their souls but will not help them otherwise. To the players Mythic Europe will work just as before but with an ugly inkling of that something just isn't right about the world...

[Tugdual]

@Jakob Ryngen

The Holy Seat in Rome just can not project an Aura that is sacred to the Cathars.

The argument fails here, as it has been demontrated many times. Feel free to house-rule it that way though.

[Berengar]

@Jakob Ryngen

RoP does not describe cathars as "wrong" imho.

Indeed tmk they 'describe' Catharism in three phrases only. This can be, because your typical gamer is not interested in more detail.
Or because writing more detail about Cathar beliefs forces you invariably into complex exegesis of literature like works of Catholic scholars on heresy around 1200 (e. g. 'opusculum contra haereticos', 'de fide catholica contra haereticos' and 'sermones XIII contra haereticos'), or later acts of inquisition (e. g. 'summa de catharis et pauperibus de lugduno' and the protocols of bishop Jacgues Fournier from Pamiers that LeRoy Ladurie worked with). This certainly shall not keep you from following the interpretation of such authors in today's literature, or doing your own. But it is a lot of work.

@Jakob Ryngen

The authors are rather driven to make all the "real" medieval religions fit into one divine context.

This is not the case. Look e. g. up how pagan religions are treated in ArM5.
And a much diluted dualism as described in RoP:D p.94 can indeed fit into the Divine, provided you leave the thorny question of who exactly created what (and what was only later tainted by demons) to the realm of fallible theology. Given that (1) we can be pretty sure that Gnosticism and Mani were issues for Augustine, but not for Bogomils and Cathars, and (2) that we can apparently derive their theology with respect to creation only from texts of their enemies in the Eastern and Western Churches, this approach is quite understandable for any RPG.
Today's scholars think, however, that some truth about Cathar beliefs - also on creation - can really be derived from the literature and records of the Catholic Church.

@Jakob Ryngen

This ambition works better with Judaism/Christianity/Islam and it seems even with Zoroastrianism than with the dualistic heresies such as Catharism and Bogomilism because they believe that god who created the world was evil. If the creator of the world had one divine son or not is not as fundamentally dividing as if he was "good" or not. I can fix it with saying that Catharism actually isn't like that in ArM but to me that seems wrong. As God and the Devil (or the Devil and God) can not be one the same playing ground I must fix this somehow or the Divine Realm will collapse.

Well, whether the creator of the physical world was considered by Cathars as Satan or the God of the Old Testament depends on where you look precisely. It appears, that the Cathars did either differ about that, did not care to inform their persecutors, or the Catholic Church did not bother to record this exactly. If you want to base your campaign cosmology on it, you will have to choose from contradictory statements on Cathar faith made by their enemies, and decide by considering the specific needs of your campaign.

@Jakob Ryngen

The Holy Seat in Rome just can not project an Aura that is sacred to the Cathars.

Neither does the Kaaba, a mosque or a synagogue. So you could indeed decide, that Divine auras in general are not sacred to Cathars, and - perhaps after a lot of exercise and abstinence - do not appear sacred to perfecti.

@Jakob Ryngen

So my conclusion is that the Cathars basically are right. The world was created by a lesser God and he did not do a very good job. This would explain why there are other powers in the world such as the Infernal, Magic and Faerie. This lesser god might not be as bad as the Devil - I would rather make him the God who speaks in Exodus 20:5 and Deuteronomy 5:9;

"For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me".

If the Church is his instrument on earth the Albigensian crusade suddenly makes perfect sense.

This can be at the base of a working cosmology for your campaign. That Cathars rejected the Old Testament as revelation is conveyed by Catholic literature of the time.
But note, that many Cathars lived in Northern Italy, Northern France and along the Rhine, places where crusades against them were never considered. Instead there were regional religious conflicts bordering on civil war in these areas, that were concluded only around 1300 by the consolidation of the power of the Catholic Church.

@Jakob Ryngen

It is not really clear what "the son of Man"/Jesus(or Mithras)-figure is as both the Cathars and the Christians believe him to be good but I don't have to explain that in order for the world to work.

Tmk, Cathars considered Christ as an angel revealing to his disciples the true nature of the universe, and the New Testament as the text bearing witness of it. Of course, their reading of the New Testament differed a lot from that of their persecutors. And, according to the work of LeRoy Ladurie, this difference of exegesis was indeed a mainstay of discussions about Cathar beliefs in the early 14th century, and considered very important by the credentes.

@Jakob Ryngen

I will not explain this to my players but they will notice that the Undergod (disguised as LORD, your God) actually is against the Cathars even though they actually are better people than most. The Overgod is unable/unwilling to save the Perfecti because there is no point in making their souls stay in an imperfect realm. Their powers will make them see and save their souls but will not help them otherwise. To the players Mythic Europe will work just as before but with an ugly inkling of that something just isn't right about the world...

Please tell us in a year or so, how your players liked that.

Cheers

[Jakob_Ryngen]

@One Shot

This is not the case. Look e. g. up how pagan religions are treated in ArM5.

I am pretty sure that if Baltic paganism had survived until today it would be Divine too in ArM so that the modern practitioners wouldn't be offended. And speaking of divine paganism I would personally make Mithraism and perhaps the Cult of Isis Divine too.

And a much diluted dualism as described in RoP:D p.94 can indeed fit into the Divine, provided you leave the thorny question of who exactly created what (and what was only later tainted by demons) to the realm of fallible theology.

I would say that the thorny question of what the world is about is a quite fundamental issue in most religions.

If you want to base your campaign cosmology on it, you will have to choose from contradictory statements on Cathar faith made by their enemies, and decide by considering the specific needs of your campaign.

The statements may have been true even if contradictory and made by their enemies. From a game perspective only the inner circle of the Perfecti may be "right". For the drama of it I will use "The Gospel according to Judas" as a source for the exact truth of the world and the creation and in that the demiurge is actually evil.

Neither does the Kaaba, a mosque or a synagogue. So you could indeed decide, that Divine auras in general are not sacred to Cathars, and - perhaps after a lot of exercise and abstinence - do not appear sacred to perfecti.

A really, really open-minded medieval theologian might actually come up with the idea that both the Kaaba, and the places of worship of all Abrahamic religions actually are holy. TMK however Gnosticism generally has the idea that their can be no holy places on earth as all material things is the work of the devil i.e. Auras and relics might exist but are actually only the devils deceptions.

But note, that many Cathars lived in Northern Italy, Northern France and along the Rhine, places where crusades against them were never considered.

TMK the heretics of Northern France and Germany where persecuted by the locals. No need for a crusade...

[Berengar]

@Jakob Ryngen

@One Shot

And a much diluted dualism as described in RoP:D p.94 can indeed fit into the Divine, provided you leave the thorny question of who exactly created what (and what was only later tainted by demons) to the realm of fallible theology.

I would say that the thorny question of what the world is about is a quite fundamental issue in most religions.

If you want to base your campaign cosmology on it, you will have to choose from contradictory statements on Cathar faith made by their enemies, and decide by considering the specific needs of your campaign.

The statements may have been true even if contradictory and made by their enemies. From a game perspective only the inner circle of the Perfecti may be "right". For the drama of it I will use "The Gospel according to Judas" as a source for the exact truth of the world and the creation and in that the demiurge is actually evil.

Here ArM5 in RoP:D is lot more honest than you make them. Cathar cosmology is conveyed to us only in an often contradictory fashion by their persecutors. So there is no mock-up of it for role-playing purposes in RoP:D p.94, but only a statement on RoP:D p.5 about the conflict between the Divine religions lying "with mortals, not within the Heavenly Host".

Both of this is unsatisfactory for you, and I can sympathize with this gut feeling. But, from historical perspective, just saddling the Cathars IYC with a Gnostic Gospel they never had access to is far worse than the 'light touch' approach of RoP:D: it makes a pasticcio of historically separate religions.

This does not diminish your right to do so IYC, but you are doing the Cathars less justice in it than plain RoP:D does.

Cheers

EDIT: Here is a very good text for free from the internet: bibd.uni-giessen.de/gdoc/2000/uni/m000001.pdf , with a long and thorough list of further literature. It is a Master's Thesis from Giessen University about the reception of the Cathars by two intellectuals from the fringe of early Lutheranism, which starts with a quick (some 25 page), but thorough run down of the history of the Cathars.
It also describes the history and role of dualism in their faith, thereby putting it into perspective and further justifying RoP:D's reservation on the subject.
Yes, reading the Thesis requires German and Latin, and checking references further requires French, Italian and a library enabled for interlending. But church history was never a topic for the 'English only', and seeing your name - Jacob - I have some hope that you can tackle it.

[The_Fixer]

@One Shot

first find and indicate the source for Catharism you want to build your campaign around,
second describe it to us, and give an argument, why this version and not another,
third decide - likely with your troupe - to make this description conform to the Divine in your campaign,
fourth give us the argument, why you want to do so.
Then you can pose the problem on this forum, just how to make this approach work for your campaign.

Exactly.
Jakob, you've been saying that this is a problem, but everytime people brought you possible answers according to RAW, you've countered by what seems to be homemade decision about the campain, decisions that weren't apparent in your initial post.

In short?
People have been mostly answering the following question "Cathars and Catholics are divine. People don't know that. Yet, someday, a cathar with Sense Holyness at huge levels notices this. What happens?"
While in fact, it seems to me you've been asking "Cathars and catholics are different, with gnosticism being both right and the cathar way. Is my cosmogony credible, and to what degree is the god of the church evil?"

As it is, it seems to me you already have your answers.

[Xavi]

IMO it will be a Catholic agent that notices that the auras generated by the cathars are divine. Same as in the Levant or Iberia (but in these regions it can go both ways). The cosmological implications of that are massive.

If anyone cares to listen to the lunatic with SH&U, that is. A dude with SH&H and massive levels of communication skills to convince others that there is something afoot here and access to the distribution of texts in the "catholic text circuit" or higher instances of church power is.... rare, at least: A PC level character. So, unless a PC makes his mission for this to happen you can basically ignore the event happening at all and people will keep massacring each other in the name of God with happiness well, that is likely to happen under another excuse anyway, so no biggie even if the PC manages (in a decade long campaign time or longer) to convince the Church of the fact that other monotheistic faiths can be divine as well. Muslims would have an easier time accepting it given the Koran's doctrine.

Cheers,
Xavi

[Jakob_Ryngen]

@One Shot

But, from historical perspective, just saddling the Cathars IYC with a Gnostic Gospel they never had access to is far worse than the 'light touch' approach of RoP:D: it makes a pasticcio of historically separate religions.

According to Sumption, The Albigensian Crusade the Carthar belief can be traced back to the Gnostic church of Marcion 144 AD. Their believes fits well with Gospel of Judas where the demiurge is evil and actually the God of the old Testament. It can be safely said that the Cathars never had access to that Gospel but in Mythic Europe who knows?

[Berengar]

@Jakob Ryngen

@One Shot

But, from historical perspective, just saddling the Cathars IYC with a Gnostic Gospel they never had access to is far worse than the 'light touch' approach of RoP:D: it makes a pasticcio of historically separate religions.

According to Sumption, The Albigensian Crusade the Carthar belief can be traced back to the Gnostic church of Marcion 144 AD.

(underscore mine) This is not an argument about historical origins, but one in a book from 1978 about perceived similarities between two religions. In the meantime, we know better.

In the more recent text I referenced above for you, you will find:

• The first relevant documented contact the Occitan Cathars made with dualism was 1167 on the council of St. Félix-de-Caraman, when Niketas converted an already numerous movement kept together before by the desire to lead a vita apostolica.
• The many classifications of Cathars as Manicheists in the Catholic literature are easily explainable: the Catholic authors followed the catalogs of heresies by Augustine and Isidor of Seville - so knew well what they were looking for before they 'found' it.

Look for this in more detail also in Mark Gregory Pegg: On Cathars, Albigenses, and good men of Languedoc [Journal of Medieval History, 2001, 27(2) 181–195] (for purchase from sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 8101000197 ).

The widely available Emmanuel LeRoy Ladurie: Montaillou, village occitan de 1294 a 1324 shows also, how dualism is only a concern of the credentes and perfecti he writes in detail about, as far as it is a result of the right exegesis of the New Testament, and a prerequisite for the right life - that most of them do not lead. One of his credentes, Pierre Clergue, is even the Catholic priest of Montaillou, before dying in prison for heresy. I do not think they would even be astonished to find, that meeting places of Cathars and the village church, which both cause a solemn mood in those present, also had an identical property visible only to certain wise, but a little odd people: after all, these are the places were the holy book is read, aren't they?

@Jakob Ryngen

Their believes fits well with Gospel of Judas where the demiurge is evil and actually the God of the old Testament. It can be safely said that the Cathars never had access to that Gospel but in Mythic Europe who knows?

Well, as long as you have players IYC you can do as you wish - even with the gratuitous argument "in Mythic Europe who knows?".

But you should have seen by now just why RoP:D does not use such a mock-up to model Catharism.

Cheers

[vincentR]

To be Blunt, the answer is P5 of RoP:D 1st column 1st paragraph. The divine is one, the limited understandingsof it by mundanes are many. As for the observations of aura, as people have stated before, it will have to be communicated and accepted by non-mystics some of which have commited murders in the name of God.
The apparent contradiction lies in human arrogance and fallability : the divine can't be understood by man and therefore no theology can be entirely right.

[YR7]

@vincentR

The apparent contradiction lies in human arrogance and fallability : the divine can't be understood by man and therefore no theology can be entirely right.

There is a difference between not being entirely right and being entirely wrong. What you're saying is that every holy man with Sense Holiness is overlooked, every angel's prodding is demonically outwitted, every hint (and there lots of those - from the users of supernatural Divine abilities feeling their power surge, to the sharing of relics and target of worship) cast away to preserve current dogma... Sure, that can work. In my opinion, however, it both makes less in-game sense and makes for fewer roleplaying opportunities than a split Heaven. Your mileage may, and apparently does, vary. That's cool.

[vincentR]

There is a difference between not being entirely right and being entirely wrong.

Sure but who is entirely wrong ? Cathars for behaving like good christians ? The fine points of theology are lost to 99,9% of the population who only compare behaviors and the roman catholic Church has in 1220 not won the match in southern France.

What you're saying is that every holy man with Sense Holiness is overlooked, every angel's prodding is demonically outwitted, every hint (and there lots of those - from the users of supernatural Divine abilities feeling their power surge, to the sharing of relics and target of worship) cast away to preserve current dogma

No but the setting would be very different if people did listen more to voices of wisdom, even if i'll probably disagree with you as the frequency of the occurences. Also the god of the old testament (the evil demiurge ?) once stated "thou shall not kill" with proprer divine intervention and all but not even the jews obey that one entirely.

Also you are making a lot of assumptions too : that holy men will come up with one unique explanation of the unique aura, that angels deliver clear instructions with proper user manual instead of cryptic messages preserving free will etc...

and makes for fewer roleplaying opportunities than a split Heaven.

while I can agree with the rest of your arguments (I was wondering myself how God could let the crusades happen), I can't with this one.
Because I believe there is more interest in situations where both sides are partly in the wrong, where you have to deal with the inconsticencies of your beliefs in face of objective truth. Trying to get the point that all "divine" religions are sharing a common ground seems to me to make a lot of roleplaying opportunity.

[Jakob_Ryngen]

@One Shot

In the more recent text I referenced above for you, you will find:

• The first relevant documented contact the Occitan Cathars made with dualism was 1167 on the council of St. Félix-de-Caraman, when Niketas converted an already numerous movement kept together before by the desire to lead a vita apostolica.
• The many classifications of Cathars as Manicheists in the Catholic literature are easily explainable: the Catholic authors followed the catalogs of heresies by Augustine and Isidor of Seville - so knew well what they were looking for before they 'found' it.
  [snip]
  The widely available Emmanuel LeRoy Ladurie: Montaillou, village occitan de 1294 a 1324 shows also, how dualism is only a concern of the credentes and perfecti he writes in detail about, as far as it is a result of the right exegesis of the New Testament, and a prerequisite for the right life - that most of them do not lead.

Interesting sources, but I am not sure of what you are hinting at. Sumption may be wrong about the origins of Catharism but are you saying that the Cathars were not dualist or they were not dualistic enough? What if there actually was one dualist Cathar? Would he be wrong or deliberately lying?

Also, if Judaism, Islam, Christendom, Zoroastrianism and Catharsis are only a bit flawed theories about the Divine is heresy really possible in ArM? Just go out and pray to one god God, like the one and true Divine Spaghetti Monster™; the theology might be a bit flawed but you'll get an divine Aura and a host of divine spaghetti?

Also, all Abrahamic religions seem to suggest that the other versions are somewhat Infernal. If they are wrong (as we must think) do we have an medieval example of real Devil worship?

[Tugdual]

@Jakob Ryngen

Also, all Abrahamic religions seem to suggest that the other versions are somewhat Infernal. If they are wrong (as we must think) do we have an medieval example of real Devil worship?

I read about how MA european scholar viewed mahometans. You can guess how the simulated disputationes went... They were good enough scholars that their failure to defend their faith was proof that they were misguided. Just enough to show that that far away menace was a weak heresy that could never reach home, whereas the local heresiac was dangerous for their souls. I think that you should read those before contemplating Infernals.

[Berengar]

@Jakob Ryngen

Interesting sources, but I am not sure of what you are hinting at. Sumption may be wrong about the origins of Catharism but are you saying that the Cathars were not dualist or they were not dualistic enough?

After the council from 1167 a substantial majority of the Occitan Cathars became dualists.
What I am saying is, that dualism was neither the first nor the only motivation of Catharism. But it made it very easy for Catholic persecutors to label the Cathars as Manicheists and thereby pigeon-hole them into a suitable category of their catalogs of heresies.
The importance and degree of that adopted dualism for the Cathars varies, however, and is quite hard to ascertain in the specific case. The text I above directed you to summarizes this as follows: "Die katharische Lehre bestand nicht aus festgelegten Glaubensartikeln, sondern war ein aus Empfindungen und Erfahrungen entstandenes Moralsystem, basierend auf einer negativen Weltanschauung, bei der das Problem der Erlösung vom Bösen zentral war. Das Böse war die unmittelbare Haupterfahrung der Katharer; bekenntnisübergreifend war seine Einschätzung und der Weg der Befreiung, während die Erklärungen seiner Herkunft und Machtbefugnisse unterschiedlich ausfielen.
Die Grundfrage der Katharer lautete nicht, woher das Böse kam, sondern umgekehrt, woher das Gute kam und wie es in die Gewalt des Bösen gelangen konnte. Das Böse entstand für die Katharer aus dem Mangel an Gutem, aus dem Rückzug Gottes. Bei der ewigen Frage, weshalb Gott das Böse zuließ, sprachen sie ihn von der Verantwortung frei.
Sie glaubten an zwei Prinzipien: Gott war ihnen Ursprung und Inbegriff alles Guten, während das Böse, verkörpert durch den Teufel, nicht ein ebenbürtiger Gegengott war, sondern auch bei
den Radikaldualisten nur ein Prinzip." (Underscores mine. I removed the many footnotes to make it readable. For the full text see p.16f of bibd.uni-giessen.de/gdoc/2000/uni/m000001.pdf .)
Reading this, you might find the three phrases of the RoP:D description of Catharism rather wise and humble. And there is no need for an 'Undergod' kicking up Divine auras to accommodate the historic Catharism in ArM5.

@Jakob Ryngen

Also, if Judaism, Islam, Christendom, Zoroastrianism and Catharsis are only a bit flawed theories about the Divine is heresy really possible in ArM?

This is a very confused question.
(1) What do you mean by Catharsis? Pick any of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis_ ... guation%29 . Is it Catharism instead?
(2) Heresy is by its definition the deviation from an authoritative teaching of the Church - not a flawed theory of the Divine as a concept of ArM5. So a heretic needs first to be a Christian.

@Jakob Ryngen

Just go out and pray to one god God, like the one and true Divine Spaghetti Monster™; the theology might be a bit flawed but you'll get an divine Aura and a host of divine spaghetti?

Have your SG sort that out. If your PC is fervent enough, a Faerie might take a fancy on him.

@Jakob Ryngen

... do we have an medieval example of real Devil worship?

Yes. Have a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_de_Rais .

Cheers

[Jakob_Ryngen]

@One Shot

What I am saying is, that dualism was neither the first nor the only motivation of Catharism. But it made it very easy for Catholic persecutors to label the Cathars as Manicheists and thereby pigeon-hole them into a suitable category of their catalogs of heresies.

Thank you for your information. Having read the text and your reply I take it that you mean that dualism was not that important to the Cathars even if they believed in it. If they are wrong about it i.e. the One Good True God actually created the world and evil is just his way of testing us, but still good enough monotheists they may still belong to the same Divine realm as Judaism/Christendom/Islam. If they are right however, and even if it is not very important, the Divine realm collapses as it is impossible that the Evil Demiurge is the same as the One Good True God. So, if we go for RoP the Cathars must be wrong (even if it is not very important to them) or the Divine realm is able to disguise the fact that it is actually divided.

I was oc talking about Catharism but auto-correct corrected that for me. If heresy is by definition the deviation from an authoritative teaching of the Church and not a flawed theory of the Divine then Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster™ is Divine. As heretic as the Cathars from a Roman Christian point of view but still Divine - the doctrine is not what matters, the will to worship one good god does. This is the only logical conclusion if the other Divine religions work even if they contradict each other. If you would put the Spaghetti Monster within a pantheon he might end up as a powerful Faerie or if you worship him in a selfish way with human sacrifice he might end up as Infernal.

Yes. Have a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_de_Rais .

Of course - good example.

[Berengar]

@Jakob Ryngen

@One Shot

What I am saying is, that dualism was neither the first nor the only motivation of Catharism. But it made it very easy for Catholic persecutors to label the Cathars as Manicheists and thereby pigeon-hole them into a suitable category of their catalogs of heresies.

Thank you for your information. Having read the text and your reply I take it that you mean that dualism was not that important to the Cathars even if they believed in it. If they are wrong about it i.e. the One Good True God actually created the world and evil is just his way of testing us, but still good enough monotheists they may still belong to the same Divine realm as Judaism/Christendom/Islam. If they are right however, and even if it is not very important, the Divine realm collapses as it is impossible that the Evil Demiurge is the same as the One Good True God.

Note that Cathars did not agree among themselves, how evil and its power in the world came into being. So many Cathars will have considered theories about this topic as human, fallible theology: after all, while disagreeing on it, they nevertheless kept together to free their souls from this evil by way of the consolamentum.

Cheers

EDIT - to briefly, a little roughly, and without footnotes outline the conflict between Cathars and Catholics:.
Typically Cathars - as far as we can ascertain in the complex situation I laid out before - did not accuse the Catholic Church of worshipping the devil, but of administering useless sacraments instead of the consolamentum, and of being complacent about the evil in the world instead of leading souls to salvation. These accuses had credibility in the Catholic population: fueled by experience, there were already discussions ongoing about the corrupt Church deviating from the example of the apostles, and the validity of sacraments administered by unworthy or uneducated priests. This caused the Church hierarchy to strike back harshly and immediately, also to preserve their influence. In this context the Church labeled the Cathar dualism as Manicheist: thus positing an influence on Cathars which cannot be demonstrated and historically is quite impossible. Then mutual accuses of devil worship could be made in polemic exchanges.

SECOND EDIT about the term dualism:

@Jakob Ryngen

I take it that you mean that dualism was not that important to the Cathars even if they believed in it. If they are right however, and even if it is not very important, the Divine realm collapses as it is impossible that the Evil Demiurge is the same as the One Good True God.

There may be a misunderstanding, when you use that term in a theological context: in the context of Catharism 'dualism' does not mean the existence of "the Evil Demiurge", but an evil physical world existing in contraposition to a good god.
In a Cathar legend (Giessen Thesis p.19ff) - whose representativeness for Cathar faith, as discussed before, is hard to judge - the maker of the physical bodies of men is a rebellious angel once created by God and then thrown from heaven. By making these bodies, the angel imitates creation and succeeds in tempting other angels, thereby imprisoning them in these bodies.
Would this mean for you, that

@Jakob Ryngen

the One Good True God actually created the world and evil is just his way of testing us

? Certainly, without God the rebellious angel could not have made the bodies - and the relation of both is not much different from that of God and Lucifer, as seen by Catholics. Only man takes another - prestigious, but quite uncomfortable - place here: as a duped angel.

[The_Fixer]

@Jakob Ryngen

As heretic as the Cathars from a Roman Christian point of view but still Divine - the doctrine is not what matters, the will to worship one good god does. This is the only logical conclusion if the other Divine religions work even if they contradict each other.

Which is roughly the position taken by the RAW

[Jakob_Ryngen]

@One Shot

Note that Cathars did not agree among themselves, how evil and its power in the world came into being. So many Cathars will have considered theories about this topic as human, fallible theology: after all, while disagreeing on it, they nevertheless kept together to free their souls from this evil by way of the consolamentum.

By that we can assume that at least some thought the world was not made by God. And what would be their view on relics with Divine power?

In a Cathar legend (Giessen Thesis p.19ff) - whose representativeness for Cathar faith, as discussed before, is hard to judge - the maker of the physical bodies of men is a rebellious angel once created by God and then thrown from heaven. By making these bodies, the angel imitates creation and succeeds in tempting other angels, thereby imprisoning them in these bodies.

That actually fits very well with early Gnostic beliefs. I would say it answers the basic religions question "Why are we here?" with a direct opposite of the explanation given by the Abrahamic religions. That "fallen angel once created by God" can be no other than the Devil. So why are we here? To me it seems that the Cathar explanation would make an Estonian pagan blush and Count de Rais applaud...

[Berengar]

@Jakob Ryngen

@One Shot

Note that Cathars did not agree among themselves, how evil and its power in the world came into being. So many Cathars will have considered theories about this topic as human, fallible theology: after all, while disagreeing on it, they nevertheless kept together to free their souls from this evil by way of the consolamentum.

By that we can assume that at least some thought the world was not made by God. And what would be their view on relics with Divine power?

First: to make the ArM5 concept of the Divine work, we have to agree that some historical beliefs of people in the middle ages can also be proven wrong by observation of the Divine.

Also without Divine auras, it happened again and again in the middle ages, that opinions of people on theology were first accepted and then discarded.
I put a few Catholic examples for that into this thread already:

• Gioacchino da Fiore claiming, that his miraculous spiritus intelligentiae made his biblical exegesis infallible - whose theories were then soon superseded by scholastic, academic theology,
• The legend, how Christ himself endorsed Thomas Aquinas theological writings - while Duns Scotus already was setting up an alternate scholastic system.
  I can add others, for example:
• Hildegard von Bingen, who claimed visions to resolve matters of Catholic theology,
• Pope John XXII, whose theory of the beatific vision was already contested during his lifetime by many scholars and the Paris University - and immediately and formally rejected by his successor.
  This was not different for other religions: finding out to be wrong in an issue of theology was a fact of life for the many medieval people who cared about it.

As for the Cathars at hand: The New Testament was their holy book - not some Gnostic Gospel. Their faith was built on this:

• God created the angels and their celestial bodies, heaven and paradise.
• Jesus was an angel coming down to Earth to explain to his disciples the true nature of the universe.
  So they would rejoice to find relics of the passion of Christ, the apostles, the Evangelists, Paulus and the first martyrs having a Divine aura - or even some Divine powers - in the evil world. And a SG endowing relics of - say - Pietro da Verona (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_of_Verona ) with a Divine aura or miraculous qualities in a campaign centering on Cathars will get what he deserves from his players.

@Jakob Ryngen

In a Cathar legend (Giessen Thesis p.19ff) - whose representativeness for Cathar faith, as discussed before, is hard to judge - the maker of the physical bodies of men is a rebellious angel once created by God and then thrown from heaven. By making these bodies, the angel imitates creation and succeeds in tempting other angels, thereby imprisoning them in these bodies.

That actually fit's very well with early Gnostic beliefs. I would say it answers the basic religions question "Why are we here?" with a direct opposite of the explanation given by the Abrahamic religions. That "fallen angel once created by God" can be no other than the Devil. So why are we here? To me it seems that the Cathar explanation would make an Estonian pagan blush and Count de Rais applaud...

Let's keep assumptions about the motives of Gilles de Rais out of this thread.

As shown in the Giessen Thesis I quoted it from, this was a common Cathar myth. They did not derive this from the New Testament. Some Cathars will never have heard of it, or not agreed to it: we might never find out how many. As a SG I would still respect it in a campaign around Cathars, though.
I quoted it to show, how really only the creation of the human bodies and the world they live in is contentious here between Cathars and Catholics. And not the nature of God, of the angels and the devil - which are the base of the Divine and the Infernal in ArM5.

Cheers