Ceremonial Casting Props (and Items of Quality)

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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Pages 58-59 of HoH: S describe the use of Ceremonial Props.

I love the idea of a mage carefully arranging certain tools to prepare for a Ceremonial Casting, or going into a prepared casting space, perhaps maintained at an established Covenant, to work magic.

However, the description is brief and cursory, probably due to limitations of production time and printing space, so I have a couple of topics for discussion:

Topic #1: props and Arts

The listings of props by size mentions 15 props several times. While it's not specifically stated, this suggests to me that there's one prop for each Art. The examples in the paragraph right under the listing reinforces that idea, though again, it's never stated outright.

This implies that a Magus can get a benefit from an incomplete set, so long as he has objects that correspond to the Technique and Form he's casting at the moment. Again, the examples seem to confirm this interpretation.

Topic #2: Stacking

I had always interpreted the various sizes to not stack--i.e. there's no benefit to using a tiny set and a small set at the same time. (Contributors here seem to agree.)

So I was surprised when one of my players (who is an experienced StoryGuide) interpreted the bonuses as stacking.

At first, I thought that was outrageous--it would allow up to +15 to a Casting Total!--but then I considered that Ceremonial Casting is almost always a subset of Spontaneous Casting, so the max bonus would effectively be +7.5 levels, which is not all that high considering the effort it would take to create a space that has all five sizes of props. (That's potentially 75 props!) The highest bonus for a set that is anywhere near easily portable would be +8, effectively +4 levels. Heck, a set of tiny props would add only +0.5 to the final level of the casting. Hardly worth it.

And all those numbers assume Fatigue loss: With a non-fatiguing casting, the range is +0.1 to +3.

So I decided that I agree with my player for the purposes of our Saga.

Topic #3: Props of Quality?

The Mystery Virtue Items of Quality is on pp. 124-5 of HoH: MC.

It allows someone who knows this Mystery to draw out the inherent magical properties in mundane objects:

"First, select a tool or item that would be appropriately used by a professional in his trade. This does not have to be a craft trade, since everybody uses various tools and items to effectively perform activates in their daily life. A knight uses a sword, a king uses a scepter, a courtier uses refined clothing, an exchequer uses an abacus, a carver uses a knife, and a tavern keeper uses a broom."

I would propose that ceremonial props fit the bill, stretching the definition considerably less than "a king uses a scepter."

So for example a ceremonial tool made of silver could be made into an Item of Quality that grants +2 to Intellego spells, or a ceremonial tool made of Ivory could be made into an IoQ that grants +5 to healing wounds.

Remember that these bonuses all get halved--and of course, the bonus is limited by the Mystery initiate's Philosophiae.

It would probably be good to limit how many such bonuses could be applied to a single casting. Without a doubt, I'd rule that having tow silver Items of Quality does NOT grant +4 to Intellego, and having both an Ivory IoQ and a Jasper IoQ would not grant +6 to healing wounds.

Beyond that, I have a couple of ideas:

#1 Limit it to two bonuses: These would probably be Technique and Form, but as long as they don't overlap, that shouldn't be a problem.

OR

#2 Limit how many extra bonuses can be applied to the caster's Magic Theory score--much the way that different elements in a compound Invested Device are limited by Magic Theory.

So, those are my thoughts. I invite discussion.

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For an IoQ, you could maybe use an prop filled with mercury, using the +3 arts & sciences material bonus it provides? If you treat the mercury with a reagent using A&A, you could increase that bonus by up to +3.

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I would not consider ceremonial magic routine use unless the item was obviously magical- for example a wand.
I would also say the bonuses do not stack, however it can still be useful to have multiple sizes- a statue for ignem in your lab and earrings for traveling about the town for example.

I tend to also require a certain minimum art or craft quality level, to illustrate that these are special items, not just something you picked up at a rummage sale somewhere.

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HoH:S p. 59 lists a ruby necklace and a coral brooch amongst the examples, so I'm not sure that's supported.

HoH:S p. 59 agrees with you: Props "may be constructed or repaired by a skilled craftsman (Ability of 5 or more) under the guidance of a magus."

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Or a mercury-filled prop could be made into an IoQ for +3 Aquam, +3 Terram, or +5 Muto--but only one such bonus per IoQ.

So you could have, for example, a tiny set that includes mercury in the Aquam prop, a small set that has mercury in the Terram prop, and a medium set with mercury in the Muto prop.

Note that every IoQ takes a Mystery-initiated Verditius a Season and a pawn of vis to make--having many of these would get quite expensive.

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The Mysteries(Revised) lists "+3 arts & sciences" as an additional material bonus for mercury in the chart on page 33.

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Yes--that's why I started my response with the word "or." :slight_smile:

The other S&M bonuses are on listed on p. 137 of HoH: MC.

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I think you misunderstand my point. Yes a ruby necklace can be used as a ceremonial prop- but that is not wat it is routinely "used" for, which would be to make someone appear more beautiful. as such a ruby necklace as an IOQ would give a bonus to perhaps etiquette or intrigue, but not to ceremonial magic use0 a non IOQ ruby necklace and an IOQ ruby necklace would be equal in use for ceremonial magic. On the other hand a wand is pretty much used for magic, so as an IOQ it would get a bonus.

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Really?

What about a staff IoQ? After all, the "routine" use of a staff is support while hiking, not casting spells.

Candles and candlelabras? Yes, they're used in magical ceremonies, but that's not their "routine" use, which is considerably more mundane.

Banners with mystical symbols? Statues? Altars? Chalices? Swords and daggers? All are used in magical ceremonies, but used far more often for other purposes.

At this rate, all the ceremonial props will be wands.

In fact, I'd hardly say that ceremonial casting is "routine," even for a Magus--so if we fixate on that word, then we should not allow any IoQ to confer a bonus for ceremonial casting. If that's your position, cool. That's what I'm asking about.

As to wands being pretty much the only tool for magic:

Considering how many examples of magical jewelry we have in folklore and the fact that your premise doesn't align with the canon examples, I can't agree with your narrow definition of "routine use."

For that matter, when an IoQ is made, the initiate inscribes it with Verditius runes (HoH: MC p. 124), thus making it an amulet (in the colloquial sense)--something that is worn solely for magical purposes.

But thanks for your input nonetheless.

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I think Items of Quality are not intended to be useful for magical purposes. They are intended for use by mundanes doing mundane stuff.

That's not to say they can never be useful for a mage doing magical stuff, but that's not what they are intended for.

Personally I would not allow ceremonial props that also happen to be IoQ additional bonuses to ceremonial casting beyond the usual bonus for using props.

If you want to allow it then go ahead - there is no explicit rule against it that I know of. And in that case you also get to decide which items will be appropriate.

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Topic 1 - having one prop per art isn't spelled out, but seems fine thematically. As long as you're OK with a technique/form specialist only carrying two props wherever they go, it should be fine.

Topic 2 - I don't think they should stack - the bigger the set, the more bonus you get. Having a stack of sets shouldn't help.

Topic 3 - I can hear David Chart's screams all the way from Japan - I wouldn't let items of quality be used, as it's hard to set down what tools are needed for a wizard to do their job (obviously a crafter needs a physical tool, a farmer uses tools on the ground, a courtier can use a seal of office - but does a wizard need any tools besides their own Gift?) and because items of quality with magi can get game-breaking. My troupe already tried to use a quill of quality to help in writing books and were slapped down because you don't roll dice when writing books, but things could have got silly.

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The examples seem to imply that's the case for at least one of the two magi described. Personally, I like the idea of taking out a whole bunch of props and carefully arranging them around the casting space.

That's how I read it initially. The thing is that by that reading, I'm not sure why any Magus would bother acquiring a set. A Tiny set would yield only +0.5 to the final effect level. Even one that is so Huge as to be immobile would add only +2.5.

I can accept the argument that it stretches the definition of tool--though I'm not sure a king needs a scepter, which is one of the canonical examples.

And I agree it goes beyond what is intended by the description of the Virtue.

I agree that applying an IoQ to seasonal activities--especially ones that involve a multiplier, as scribing books does--becomes ridiculous.

I don't buy the idea that what I'm proposing is game-breaking.

The highest S&M Bonus is a +10 vs demons with red coral (adding +5 to the effect), and that's for a very specific application. It pretty much only would work for a Circular Ward against Demons. No one casts a Ceremonial Spontaneous Demon's Eternal Oblivion. Both of those effects have to Penetrate, so even that +5 barely moves the needle.

And that's for something that requires a Minor Mystery Virtue, a Magic Theory score of 10, a Season that a Verditius could use doing other things, and a pawn of Vis.

Most S&M bonuses are far, far lower--and remember that they'll get cut in half for Spontaneous casting.

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The issue is that's like saying $1 is small and really doesn't matter that much, so a stack of a million $1 bills is worthless. Consider this such a scenario: AL 4 (Ceremonial Casting), Philosophiae 4 (Ceremonial Casting), large props. If no 2.5 is special and we ignore those, we give up +7.5 to casting our spontaneous spell. That's +1.5 magnitudes to any spontaneous spell you ever want to cast. 1.5 magnitudes in every TeFo combination can open up a lot of possibilities.

Well, there are higher S&M bonuses than that. They're just even more circumstantial.

I think you've overlooked a major issue. I love Ceremonial magic for boosting penetration with mastered Formulaic spells with the Ceremonial Casting option. In addition to the above note about small bonuses compounding, there is no /2 there. My above example might cast Circular Ward against Demons with a bonus to penetration notably higher than +5.

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I would concur that ceremonial props shouldn't be getting bonuses from IoQ bonuses.

I also don't think it is correct to view ceremonial casting or props as something even primarily for use with spontaneous magic. It can certainly help there, but it can also help Formulaic magic quite a bit.

I think Ceremonial Casting ought to be a base casting option for Formulaic Spells regardless, however even requiring a mastery ability for it ... it seems like it should be one of the most common and intuitive selections.

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Since I play a Magus with Flawless Magic, he has lots of mastery abilities. Vortigern's comment made me check and he has Ceremonial on almost exactly 1/3 of them, with it being his most common by far for Formulaic magic.

Penetration is his next most common (if we ignore Adaptive, which we use a HR version of), then Fast, Multi, Quiet, and Still. After that it is kind of a grab bag of things like Forceful, Quick, varies Attunement, Disguised, Connection, Secure, and Apotropaic.

Granted my character is an odd man out since Flawless Magic means he will have lots of mastery, but without it Ceremonial would still be the one I would have taken the most of. It is a more effective version of Penetration (that also stacks with it) for any spell that you do not have to cast "Now!" but need to penetrate.

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Funnily enough, that's the same ratio as my current character (Dietmar of Verditius) has.
More specifically, I have 1 spell with 2 levels of Mastery that I got from a Twilight episode..
And then I have The Leap of Homecoming, with a single level of mastery and Ceremonial Mastery. Which is effectively the only way to can cast it, most of the time.

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Once again, I didn't say that they could not be used in magical ceremonies, I said their IOQ bonus would not contribute to magical ceremonies. If Wands are the only example of an IOQ that would give a bonus to a magical ceremony I would be fine with that, since that is not the purpose of IOQs or magical ceremonies. However I believe you have overlooked things like crystal balls as well.
Again, the rules for IOQ and ceremonies are not supposed to be used together, and treating this as a "loophole" to use a IoQ bonus in a ceremony should be very tightly constrained, not given the biggest most muchkiny opportunity for abuse possible. We are not talking about restricting what can be used in a ceremony, just when the IOQ bonus can apply.

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I'm curious as to what S&M bonus there is higher than 10.

I have a PDF that purports to list all of them, and it has three listed as 10. Besides red coral, it has silver at +10 for harming lycanthropes and a human skull at +10 for controlling or destroying the ghost associated with that particular skull.

It doesn't list any higher than 10.

But it's possible the PDF compilation is incomplete, so please let me know what they are.

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Thanks, everyone, for your discussion and opinions (even the ones I don't agree with). :grinning:

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There are a couple of +11s in the magical creature section of Hermetic Projects on page 139.

Dedicated Vis from RoP:M has 2x the regular S&M bonuses for certain uses.

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