Challenges for the Mentem master enslaver?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

It's actually not a huge issue for the campaign (plenty of other things), but one of my players has become a quite scary mind-messer (and another is not far behind):
A favorite tactic is Enslave the Mortal Mind, which he ran up to a Spell Mastery 6 (including quiet, still, fast, multi-cast and penetration), Penetration 6, and he's got 20+ in both Rego and Mentem. We've had 110+ sessions in the campaign... available for those who enjoy such things here.
Of course, this is quite effective (really op as RAW) against humans/faeries as well much older magi than himself. Especially when combined with Rego and Perdo Mentem effects to alter or remove the memories of said enslavement - often combined with a sleep. Not to mention he does have Shroud Magic too...

Since Mentem can be quite op, while being handled in the campaign (much better than Leap of Homecoming which I have started hating with a passion) it has led me thinking kind of ways it can be mitigated or challenged but still rewarded (as a rightful specialty) - and I would love some input too.

  1. Clamp down more on the eye-contact mechanics. After all, the mind must be perceived to be affected by magic, and the eyes are the window to the soul :).
  2. As the target is actually fully enslaved - they lose all creative thought processes. I.e. does not volunteer things at all and need very detailed instructions to really accomplish anything (good for roleplay). Since the spell is so heavy-handed otherwise, this has solved some of the OP issues so far.
  3. Since the spell is high level and duration:sun, it's perhaps not so easy even for the magus to remove/dispel it at will - which may require timing around dawn/dusk with the other Mentem effects. Leading to challenges or complications.

Any other thoughts on dealing with Enslave the Mortal Mind, as well as other high powered Mentem stuff? (I guess range: voice or sight variants could by RAW really mean problems)

3 Likes
2

I think a well planned Hermetic crime is really hard to track down.

If the target is a magus in every 4-5th occasion there should be a quesitorial investigation. Bc magi have servant - and when you PeMe a mage and a few servants, someone will be suspitious and ask the question: Why do I not remember for a whole day?

If the target is a noble in every 4-5th occasion there should be a some church investigation. Bc nobles have servant, family, other important connections - and when you PeMe a noble and a few servants, someone will be suspitious and ask the question: Why did that noble friend of mine this really strange, even stupid thing? Is he mental? Is he a traitor? Is there some demonic possesion?

If the target is some nobody, then though luck. :slight_smile:

3 Likes
3

A few possibilities:

  • Use non-human opponents (demons, a dragon, elementals, angels) that are not affected by Mentem
  • Introduce someone who is immune to mind control (a Lesser Immunity)
  • It is hard to target an R:Eye spell if you cannot see your target, so opponents that are invisible or can see in the dark can be a challenge
  • Have an opponent that works through non-human means
  • Someone with a powerful relic, in a place with a strong Divine aura, can rack up an impressive Divine-based magic resistance; a miracle could also happen
  • Turn the tables on the character, having him come to the attention of exactly the same kind of specialist Hermetic magus/maga, but older and more powerful (and who probably mastered Enslave the Mortal Mind for Magic Resistance); see how he likes being the target
  • Added: Challenge the character indirectly, for example by destroying his resources when he's away, or by political moves (up to a Wizard's War)
  • Added: Multiple opponents are much harder to affect all at once, so swarm him
  • Added: Have someone witness his acts of mind-control and spread the word, so that no one will meet his gaze
4 Likes
4

Another lead that something fishy happened is to have the victim have strange dreams. Yes, PeMe has been used, but can it really clean everything? Some slivers of memories remains, especially of despicable acts, or against the values of the person.

If the duration is Sun, but at mid-day the mage is through with the use of his slave, unless he properly dispels the spell, it remains in effect. Even if order "Go back to your normal way", the person will act more like a puppet, will lack expression or emotion - she is still acting under duress, even if the last instruction was "Do as usual".

There is a clear example of a covenant (I don't remember the supplement) where a mage use frequently ReMe on turbula: such powerful effect completely remove any sense of initiative to the point that grogs need to be told to eat, otherwise would go the whole day without eating (but also doing basic hygiene stuff like peeing - the body will relieve itself since it is a natural mechanism, but since the grog is not told to hold and do that in the privy or the hothouse...).
All these behaviours can be witnessed, or the person can woke up with his trousers wet and without memories on how it happens.

I have to disagree with @Arthur, Mentem can affect any mind, not only human mind. So non-human opponents is probably not enough. But you can house-rule and requires a casting requisit.
Animals, swarms would be immuned - you can create an ant colony that have a collective intelligence thus cannot be affected by Mentem spell because it is not Ind, it is thousand of tiny sparkles of intelligence working together.

Demons might be an interesting target, since they are master deceivers, but don't overdo it, it can get stale quickly.

2 Likes
5

Even at those levels of mastery, Magic resistance can be an issue.

  • Keep in mind Familiar bonds can offer relief from mind control
  • Ranks in Memtem also offer resistance to mind affecting effects
  • Effect is suppressed when entering an Aegis
  • Supernatural creature might just undo the effect
  • Ward vs mind affecting effects
  • (S&M bonus) Tree, Walnut: +4 mind - To make an object to protect vs mind affecting effects
  • Blind/no eyes/blinding helmets to avoid being targeted by Eye range
  • Virtues that should grant a roll to resist such as strong willed or true love and the like (I personally am of the opinion that effects should be a bit like poisons and have a base 3+ to save against and then you add magnitudes to add +3 to the difficulty)
  • PeVi effect vs Memtem
  • CrMe effect to gain mental resilience

Overall, it is a very effective and can be scary for the few that suspect the use of. Player operating efficiently in this way might attract the attention of an equally efficient nemesis or creature that wants him to stop stepping into his plans or wants to use him.

W

6

Two ideas: one, run the adventure from Tales of Power where the cardinals are electing a new pope in the septizodium in Rome. A combination of people with relics, a strong faerie aura and a character with Immunity(mind control) will seriously mess with this character. Two, smack him with the consequences of his actions - has he used his powers unwisely (or not aptly as a Criamon would say) ? If he's been villainous, have demons show up and try to tempt them to greater feats of mind control. If they've only been slightly selfish, have a saint or an angel interfere to point out they could be doing good.

2 Likes
7

Essential traits (detailed in RoP:M) are a limited form of immunity to mind control and all personality flaws are essential traits, ergo give our some essential traits don't let him get away with giving commands that go against essential traits.

8

He sounds like an excellent target for a Tytalus wanting to shift the Tribunal's stance on ReMe magics/stress-test the Tribunal's response to ReMe magics.

The sort of Tytalus who would also have ReMe magics but would make a point of using them poorly... unlike his very deft use of MuVi spells to change his sigil and his use of Persona/MuIm spells to impersonate the mark.

The mind-slaver can certainly prove that he didn't do those particular violations of the Code, but he'll have to prove it to the Quaesitoris while hiding his other transgressions... and somehow prevent his other victims from coming to Quaesitoral attention. In the aftermath of proving his innocence he'll probably have changed how he uses the mind-enslaving and how the Tribunal/Quaesitoris will deal with it in the future.

... and then the Tytalus can start following him around, anonymously boosting the Magic Resistance of any new mind-slavery targets (or, just dispelling it prematurely, with disguised sigil, of course).

4 Likes
9

Against weakish Fae and normal humans, that's how hermetic magi works. Grand master magicians are terrifyingly powerful. One option is to throw powerful threats at them.

Considering the PC has a score of Penetration 6, and one spell mastered to 6, I would assume top end mages are having Parma Majica scores of 7+. I would think without arcane connections to boost penetration, it is failing against senior magi. Also, if he annoys enough fae, send a Fae with serious Magic Might.

Regarding the options presented.

The Core Rulebook mentions most people do not avoid eye contact, and target eye is relatively simple to achieve on most occasions. A player can get pretty grumpy, and arguably has cause to, when something they've spent large amounts of in-game resources to achieve, gets nerfed. I'd recommend against this one.

I like this option, however, it's a interesting narrative choice to go the other way. If the characters have any sense of morality, the being under control knowing, and being totally horrified of what they are doing, is more challenging morally, than a mental zombie following specific orders.

If the characters are psychopaths, zombies may be better. Giving the psychopath the option to enslave and order things like "Destroy everything and everyone you love. Use all your skills and resources at your disposal, so you are not discovered. If you can maintain secrecy, be as brutal and horrible as you can imagine.I warned you not to cross me." Not good.

This dilemma is what makes AM different from other games. The question isn't about "Can we?", it is "Should we?".

I consider the best response is to bring consequences to actions as mentioned. If the party overuses Enslave and Memory Wipes, there will be inconsistencies the people around the Memory Wiped people will identify.

There will be discussion about the aberrant behaviour the enslaved person can't recall. The more out of character, the more likely people nearby will talk about what happened.

For example, Enslaving and Wiping the minds of 6 guards. Not all of them will accept they had a drunken bender or whatever fake memory is implanted. The guard with the trait devotion to duty +3 who doesn't drink, knows something is wrong.

If the magi are causing too many problems, they could bring a march down upon them. Maybe have a quaesitor or two have a polite chat before doing the full march though.

4 Likes
10

What would happen if a MuVi specialist bumped that Enslave the Mortal Mind down to R:Pers?

4 Likes
11

I'm loving the discussion and thought processes so far. It's validating what I'm kinda already doing as well as giving me a few ideas. Thank you.

I'd like to add that the character in question is a Tytalus, and the runner-up Mentem specialist is Tremere - and they have a wonderful hate-love camaraderie-adversary relationship going on throughout the campaign (it's been fabulous). Also, neither of them have been murder-hoboing or misusing the power much more than at critical junctures and mainly as either an information gathering thing or neutralization rather than forcing people to go bonkers. They're actually treading pretty well along the Code (only occasionally over) and keeping to good narratives.

@Arthur @Ezechiel3571 @WilliamEx Thanks, that's good lists and good points. And yes, good point about the demons. I overdid it early in the campaign to the point one of the players was on the verge of quitting because it was so difficult to deal with the deceptive qualities (admittedly it was a bit rough). But we talked about it and scaled it back (focusing on fae for him) and been good since.

@darkwing oh yes, both demons and Diedne magics have been tempting them both (for a long time). I like the angel idea too, and it will shock the players. Thanks :slight_smile:

@Hyalus Excellent suggestion with the Tytalus. Even better, the character is Tytalus and has a tormenting master flaw - Prima Buliste herself! Now I got some great ideas for her next nefarious steps to tormet her little worm... :smiley: She'll probably do it by proxy and not herself though.

@Fishy The spell mastery + high penetration and often well above 40+ totals tends to smash Parma 7-8 defenses and fae in the 40-50 Might range (happened). His nemesis fae is Logi (germanic Loki) though, who's got enough trickery up his sleeve even though he'd be vulnerable - it's been lots of fun.
I agree on not clamping down too hard on eye contact mechanics - it's not necessarily about nerfing something he spent considerable time and effort on. However, I'll have to make some more effort for some foes to avoid it and let the player use his wiles to catch their eye to be effective.

I hadn't thought of that. Interesting take I might make a play out of. As we've played it, it's not really either or - we haven't delved into the receiving end (except where one of the players were affected early in the campaign by a reversed spell from an infernal item held by a foe - to great hilarity as the other players didn't know he was controlled, leading to some shockingly fun pushing down a flight of stairs backstabbing).

Precisely this. Very well put - it's kinda the core of the game and my campaign and both I and my players love it.

Great point, thank you.

Hehe, you mean inferference just as he's casting it - it'll just affect himself? Sounds like either a total lockup or he'll be open to any suggestion from anyone?
It would have to be pretty well fast cast by the opponent though, also as he's got both still and quiet there is very little to read into changing the magic so I guess the MuVi specialist would really have to be prepared and understanding his method - unlike if voice and gestures were being used. Or am I overthinking it a bit?

4 Likes