Character conversion from 3rd ed. to 5th ed. ?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

It looks like I misunderstood your earlier comment then - I thought you meant the difference between the 2.700 XP for a newly created char I mentioned and the 80x30 = 2400 you mentioned.

But it seems like you actually were refering to the difference between the XP I used (about 4900/5140) and 2400/2700 you would normally get.

Including spells we are even talking about a difference of about 2700 from the "simple" creation of a 80y-our-of-apprenticeship character vs. 5700/5950 from the conversion of a 3rd edition character. This is a HUGE difference.

Due to this I am currently trying to see how large the difference between a character created under the extremely detailed system would be in contrast to the converted character above.

I am trying to simulate the way the character develops fairly close to the way the converted character developed (but since this was fairly long ago I might be wrong in some cases).

Most importantly one needs to know about the number/duration/location of adventures and the character's covenant (books, teachers, aura, vis, lab quality, other magi).

CharonJr

22

Hi,

ok, here is the extremely complex character creation for Albertus up to the end of apprenticeship.

INT +3, PER +1, PRE 0, COM -1, STR 0, STA +2, DEX 0, QUI +1

Virtues: Affinity Rego, Affinity Mentem, Book Learner, Puissant Muto, Puissant Corporem, Improved Characteristics (INT), Secondary Insight, Personal Rego Vis Source (1/season)

Flaws: Ambitious (Best at Certamen), Difficult spontaneous magic, Favors, Incompatible Arts (Cr/In/Mu Ignem)

Albertus spend his early childhood on the small farm of his parents between Toledo and Alarcos (Spain – Spanish 5 - 75XP).

Since this was the time of the Reconquista and there were dishonorable people fighting on both sides it was important to look out for possible dangers at all times. Since Albertus was too small to be any real help on the farm his job was to watch out for dangers (Awareness 3 - 30XP, Athletics 1 - 5XP).

His father often took him with him to the next village or a small fair where he sold his wares. There he picked up some small skill in haggeling (charm 1 - 5 XP, guile 1 - 5 XP).

Just after he turned six something happened that would change Albertus life forever. He has no memory of what had happened, but he must have fallen unconcious and when he woke up in the rubble of the burned down farm of his parents and his parents where nowhere to be found. While he was still stumbling through the ruble he was surprised by a band of Arabs who took kim- still dumbstruck – with him to Alarcos which was still in Arab hands during this time.

He made his life on the streets of Alarcos begging till the potential to increase his own income was seen by an older beggar who realised that the Arabs charity was gaining the boy more money than he was making. During the 2 years he was forced to stay with the beggar he picked up basic Arabic (4x8 = 32XP, skill 3+2XP) and became slightly more skilled in begging (charm 10XP, skill 2; guile 10 XP, skill 2).

Around the time he turned 8 a strange man passed the pair of beggars on the streets of Alarcos who suddenly stopped right before them and started my mumble strange words and make strange gestures with his fingers. He stopped and started again twice and while the beggars wanted to run away they were unable to. At the end he finally said “The boy will come with me!” to the older beggar and “Come!” to Albertus and without actually wanting to the boy followed.

During the following days the man who called himself Marek told Albertus that he has a special hidden gift and his friends would help him to find it. He was brought to Coeris where he was appenticed to a magus. On the morning after the first full moon during the spring Albertus woke up with a strange feeling at his eyes and felt an object like a tear of glass up there. It was colored purple .When his parens examined the object in the lab he found that it was one pawn of Rego vis. After every first full moon of each season 1 pawn of Rego vis can be harvested this way – it looks like Albertus can forget about getting/passing his gauntlet before 15 years are over :wink:

Seasons:

  1. opening up the arts - Albertus and his parens agree on switching the personal training for the next 3 years to 3 additional training sessions during the last year of his apprenticeship – since his parens will be on a fairly long expedition to Egypt
  2. being taught Latin by the Chaplain of Coeris (as in Covenants-Covenfolk, basically this guy is instructing all new apprentices in the basics, another new apprentice started his training at the same time as Albertus, so basically he will have to share this specialist with the other student - COM +3, 5 teaching, +5 good teacher, teaching room +2, 2 students +3, base 3, -3 gift = 18 XP, skill 2)
  3. more Latin studies (+18 XP, skill 3)
  4. more Latin (+18XP, skill 4)
  5. being taught Artes Liberales by the Chaplain (+18XP, skill 2 – together with Latin 4 he is finally able to read and is handed a book about Magic Theory – I wonder why... :wink: )
  6. reading a primer (summa, L5, Q15, +3) about Magic Theory => 18XP, skill 2
  7. reading a primer about Creo (L10, Q20 for 23XP, 6 skill, 2XP Me – skill 1, 1XP Vi – skill 1, 1XP Co – skill 1, 1XP Te – skill 1)
  8. reading a primer about Vim (L10, Q20 for 23XP – skill 6, 2XP Re – skill 1, 1XP Mu – skill 1)
  9. more MT studies from the summa for 18XP, skill 3
  10. reading a primer about Creo (L10, Q20 for 23XP, 9 skill, 2XP Me – skill 2, 1XP Im – skill 1, 1XP He – skill 1, 1XP Ig – skill 1)
  11. enough learning, payback time – lab work, vis extraction for 3 Vim Vis (Cr9 + Vi6 + MT3 + INT3 + lab+2 + Aura4 = 27 CrVi lab total), 2XP to MT from exposure
  12. the MT summa again for 18XP, skill 4
  13. lab work for 3 Vim Vis again, 2XP in MT
  14. lab work for 3 Vim Vis again, 2XP in MT
  15. helping with creating a magnitude 17 longevity potion for his master, +2XP MT
  16. parens teaches Finesse for 16XP, skill 2
  17. helping with creating a PeCo 40 spell, +2XP MT
  18. reading a Muto primer for 23XP, skill 6, 2XP Me – skill 3, 1XP Au – skill 1, 1XP Aq – skill 1, 1XP An – skill 1
  19. creating 3 Vim Vis, +2XP MT
  20. great weapon training by the parens (14 XP, skill 1)
  21. helping in the lab with inventing a ReMe 40 spell, 2XP Re – skill 2, 2XP Me
  22. reading a Intellego primer for 23XP, skill 6, 2XP Me – skill 4, 1XP Co, 1 XP Te, 1XP An
  23. creating 3 Vim Vis, +2XP MT
  24. the parens teaches Concentration for 16XP, 2 skill
  25. reading Corporem primer for 23XP, 2XP Re – skill 3, 1XP Pe – skill 1
  26. reading Terram primer for 23XP – skill 6, 2XP Re, 1XP Mu
  27. vis creation, +2XP MT
  28. training in Philosophiae by the parens for 16XP, skill 2
  29. lab work with a arcane connection for +2XP MT
  30. reading a Rego primer for 23(35 due to affinity)XP – skill 8, 2XP Me, 1XP An – skill 2, 1XP Co – skill2, 1XP Te
  31. reading a Perdo primer for 23XP – skill 6, 2XP Me – skill 5, 1XP Te, 1XP An, 1XP Vi
  32. training in Penetration by the parens for 16XP, skill 2
  33. creating 3 Vim Vis, +2XP MT
  34. creating 3 Vim Vis, +2XP MT – skill 5
  35. his parens got him one of the better Creo summa from the library for one season (L15, Q20) since Albertus’ new CrVi lab total should get him 4 pawns of vis by extracting vis => 23 XP – skill 11, 2XP Me, 1XP Te – skill 7, 1XP Co, 1XP Vi
  36. parens teaches Hermetic Lore with a special emphasis towards house Tremere for 16XP, skill 2
  37. lab work for 4 Vim Vis (Cr11, Vi6, MT5, INT+3, lab+2, Aura4), 1XP Cr, 1XP Vi
  38. play it again, Sam – 4 Vis for 1XP Cr, 1XP Vi – skill 7
  39. reading a Mentem primer for 23(35 – affinity)XP, 2XP Re – skill 9, 1XP Mu
  40. training by the parens in Penetration for 16XP - skill 3
  41. reading the Terram primer for 23XP – skill 9, 1XP Mu, 1XP Pe
  42. helping with inventing a spell for his parens’ familiar MuMeAn 40, 1XP Mu – skill 7, 2 XP Me
  43. Corporem primer for 23XP – skill 6, 2XP Re, 1XP Pe
  44. teaching by the parens in Concentration for 16XP – skill 3
  45. 4 Vim Vis, 1XP Cr, 1XP Vi
  46. 4 Vim Vis, 1XP Cr, 1XP Vi
  47. 4 Vim Vis, 1XP Cr, 1XP Vi
  48. teaching by parens in Finesse for 16XP – 3 skill
  49. reading Muto primer for 23XP, 2XP Me – skill 10, 1XP Te, 1XP Co – skill 7, 1XP An
  50. 4 Vim Vis, 1XP Cr, 1XP Vi
  51. 4 Vim Vis, 1XP Cr, 1XP Vi
  52. teaching by parens for 16(24)XP in Rego – skill 11, 2XP Me, 1XP An – skill 3, 1XP Au, 1XP Te
  53. helping in inventing a lvl 35 ReTe (Mighty Split of Earth, based on The Earth Split Asunder with 1 magnitude added for +1(+3) size) spell, 2XP Te, 1XP Te
  54. helping in inventing a lvl 35 MuVi spell, 1XP Mu, 1 XP Vi
  55. reading a Ignem primer (know your enemy) for 23XP – skill 6, 1XP Pe, 1XP Mu
  56. teaching by parens for 16XP in Perdo, 2XP Me, 1XP Aq, 1XP He, 1XP Im
  57. Learning spells for parens: Gift of Sturdy Constituion – MuCo15, Quench the Raging Conflagration - PeIg20, Hardness of Adamantine – MuTe25, Aura of Rightful Authority – ReMe20
  58. more spells: Invisible catapult of Vilano – ReTe20, Window of Singular Direction – MuTe15, Mighty Split of Earth – ReTe35, Bind Wound – CrCo10
  59. and more spells: Doublet of Impenetrable Silk – MuAn15, Seven League Stride – ReCo30, Pattern of Deep Cuts – PeCo30, Sense Silver – InTe5
  60. being taught Parma Magica by his parens for 16XP – skill 2

New Spell: Mighty Split of Earth – Voice/Spec./Part (Base3, +2 Voice, +1 Mom, +1 Part, +3 Size) – creates a 25 foot wide, 60 foot long, 20 foot deep crack in the ground. Opens in 1 round, stays open for 1 round, closes in 1 round if the caster maintaince concentration. Avoiding falling in depends on the distance to the edge of the pit (QUI-stress roll of 9 for up to 5 feet, 12 for up to 10 feet, 15 if caught close to the middle). Falling in causes +20 damage. Unless a succesful QUI-stress roll of 12 is made to get out quickly people in the pit take +25 damage.

In total Albertus yielded his parens 60+50 pawns of Vis and helped/worked in the lab for a total of 22 seasons. Albertus gained 306XP in abilites, 506XP in arts and 240XP in spells during the 15 years of his apprenticeshipwithout really resorting to using anything unreasonable.

Do the required stress rolls and damage numbers for the spell sound reasonable to you ?

Any other comments ?

Thx,

CharonJr

PS: Albertus lost his ReMe-Certamen gauntlet during the 3rd round without even gaining a positive weakening total once :wink:

23

Where do you get the trickle of xp in several arts from? Normally, you can only increase one skill/art a season...

24

Argh, you are right, I have forgotten to write Secondary Insight up there as a virtue - 7 "points" of virtues and 10 "points" of flaws would not be good :wink:

CharonJr

PS: Hmm, actually unless I miscounted just now it looks like I have only 6 "points" of virtues up there, will have to take a look at the stuff I wrote when I get home from the office, either I just forgot to write down 2 virtues (secondary insight and something else) or I just forgot to take another virtue.

edit: I found the missing virtue - Personal Vis Source (Rego)

25

Time to convert our old starting covenant to the 5th edition rules as well:

Like mentioned in a post earlier we set up a sponsored spring covenant (help in setting up the covenant for 20 vis each year to the 4 sponsering covenants). Basically the sponsors provide books/money and a small number of grogs. The covenant has to be build from scratch.

Boons:
Minor: +1 Aura (4)
Minor: Wealthy (a decent deposit of silver is close by which can be mined)
Minor: Hidden Resources - 19 of the 50 yearly pawns of Vis are not known and since they are actually inside the faerie forest will be contested as well (minor hook there), in addtion only the vain books will be available imediatly while the sound/exception books will have to be collected by the characters along with 20 pounds of silver (to get to the 250 build points).

Hooks:
Minor: Contested resource - as mentioned above, 19 vis located in a faerie forest, getting them either involves winning a contest for the right to get the vis for the next 5 years or defeating the faeries which is impossible at the beginning and might have repercussions
Minor: Indebted - have to pay 20 vis each year to the 4 sponsor covenants (5 each) for 21 years
Minor: Gender imbalance – since this is a newly founded covenant there are only the magi and some warriors present at the beginning (in addition to one physician), all of them are male

The library is excellent (+3 points under 3rd. Edition rules), due to this I think that using the old scores for the level and 15 for quality should be fine (even a bit low?).

Exceptional books (2): Corporem (L20, Q15) and Mentem (L18, Q15)
Sounds books (3): Animal (14/15), Muto (13/15), Vim (13/15)
Vain books (10): Imagonem (12/15), Terram (12/15), Intellego (12/15), Ignem (11/15), Perdo (10/15), Creo (9/15), Herbam (8/15), Aquam (8/15), Auram (6/15), Rego (6/15)

Books about abilities: Magic Theory (5/15), Concentration (4/15), Hermes Lore (3/15)

Spells: Just 4 versions of Aegis of the Hearth (15/20/25/30)

Vis stores: 6 Rego, 6 Vim for casting Aegis

Specialist: Physician (lvl 6)

Vis sources: 31 pawns of vis/year

Silver: 80 pounds to buy the material/labor to set up the covenant – should be enough for 5 labs, some other buildings and basic materials/equipment/food

Total build points: 525 + 250 from hidden/contested resources (for 5 mages)

Do you think that this fits with the concept of the covenant we had set up under the 3rd edition rules ?

26

Quality 15 is exceptional and very high even for a good library.

Consider, base quality is communication+6 which gives you 6-11 if you have positive communication. You can get higher if you write lower but considering how high those art books are for scores, I am not sure about it.

You should probably make it varying quality of 9-12 and used saved points for a tractus or two that might be special. There is another thread on here about standard books [url]https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/covenants-standard-texts/593/1] that probably should be your base and then add some exceptional books and a few tracti on top of that.

27

You are forgetting Virtues like Strong Writer.
Discussion in the past has shown that if you have a sufficiently large pool of magi writing books, which go into libraries, and which are copied and circulated from there, THEN the books which are most often picked for the effort of copying are those written by the virtuous authors with extra Quality.
There is no point copying a lower Quality book if a higher Quality book is sitting next to it... (well, not unless your target audience has read all the higher Quality books - hence the point about "a sufficiently large pool of authors"...)

ArM5 includes comments that the practical maximum Art score is around 40, so the practical maximum level for a Summa is 20 (attained by only a few, but you really want to copy their books!).
The level-for-quality trade-off is then capped by this limit.

The Library point costs in core 5e, and in Covenants, already include the assumptions about writes-with-Virtues, and the maximum level attainable.
It is OK to pick any combination from that list ... the higher point cost then reflects the extra value... and the variation in chosen books reflects the desires of reading magi across the Order.

Note that in 5e the basic Primer on the Arts, widely copied and circulated, will be the Level 6, Quality 21 book - straightforward to write for the handful of "best ever" authors. Such a book takes the novice to level 6 in one season. (Hence a library only needs one such book on each favoured Art - you don't need 2 'cos you can't use the 2nd! Hence only the "best" author ever needs be copied.)
The next "1 season book" is level 8, Quality 15, written by the same author... After that, it takes more than 1 season to get more than 1 level.

(And that, plus the high XP cost of Abilites, is why the levels-per-season got dropped -- you could only ever invoke to rule so rarely!)

28

Hmm, ok, lets take a look at the maximum quality again (using covenants here):

Max. Qual. = COM(5) + 3 + 3max for skilled crafters + virtues (good teacher+3) + 3max for resonant materials + bonus for writing below half level (max COM5 + good teacher3 + skilled crafters 3 + 3) for a maximum of 17 + 14 = 31.

For a level 20+ book I would agree that boni for writing below half level are unlikely and should be reserved for "one of a kind" books.

Quality 17 is still fairly high since it assumes the best of the best in the form of the writer, materials and crafters.

How common a good teacher is is currently discussed in another thread and I tend to agree that only the really good books made by really good teachers will be copied often. Due to this I think that COM+5, good teacher are not as hard to find as one would think in an order of magicans who are able to increase their COM with "just" spending vis and learning/inventing a personalized spells. There might be even some mages around who want to write the greatest summa in the order just to gain a kind of immortality. Glossing can effectively "raise" the authors COM from 4 to 5 if the writer has COM5 and a high enough score in the art. Annotations by the original author after he raised his art will help with getting higher level books, too (+5+3+3 = 11).

Skilled crafters are not THAT hard to find either I think (+3 = 14).

Getting the first point for resonance due to purchasing/using special materials is not hard either if you went to all the length mentioned above (+1 = 15).

Materials involving stories for the 2nd point and turning it into a item of pure magic for a 3rd point are completely different stories concerning the time/effort involved and due to this are the least likely to be added.

I come to the conclusion that even a book with L20Q15 would be surely exceptional, but nothing a powerful covenant might not reproduce in a fairly short amount of time.

Even if a powerful/skillful magus was not concerned about the final quality of his book and failed to use skilled (any) crafters and resonant materials those might be added at any time later thus adding to the quality of the book/manuscript.

Thx for the input,

CharonJr