Character & Covenant Development

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Roof of the World
21

Accelerated Abilities are loosely defined as those meant to go up against the comparative might of a supernatural being, or in this case, the comparative level of a spell. It is more an issue of mathematics than power.

I myself don't have any issue with the power. Maybe add some sort of cost or expenditure to activate the power? You need to spend a Fatigue level to use it. That will balance out somewhat. It has a huge expense to begin with (+3 Virtue and a butt load of xps for the ability), and with a Fatigue cost, it doesn't have an infinite unlimited use.

22

Everyone:
I love all your ideas. Keep ‘em coming!

Be aware advancement will come in chunks of several seasons, and more than a year between adventures won’t be uncommon. Just FYI.

Also, don’t forget you have up to eight years post-apprenticeship to play with if you want.

Specific Questions:

The White Lady is the name of the covenant, presumably for the mountain and regio nearby. The name may have other significance as well. If your concept requires you have more of an idea, or if you think you know what it means, tell me.

Bjornaer are everywhere you want them to be. :wink: Joining the House could be very very cool as well, though. We could do a lot with that. Although “one of her first stories” is probably at least several months hence in real time (sorry, it’s the nature of the medium), so keep that in mind. I'm excited to play that out if that's what you want, though.

Good start. Is this him as you intend to play him? He looks freshly Gauntleted to me, which is why I ask. I won’t put him on my docket to audit until you’re near a final draft.

Now, tell me more about this guy. Does he like being a Gifted Mercere? I’ve always thought it would be kind of a crappy job, being as you’re at the beck and call of your House. Is he OK with that? Resigned to it? Fanatical about it?

Also, why the lechery? It’s a cool flaw, will definitely come up in play. Is it that he just can’t control himself? Anything ever come of it – any children? Has he ever really loved someone? What else is important to him?

How so?

23

How so? Because the math seems off by over 100 pts. Not crippling, but still.

MM - Got it - that makes sense, given the math of the system, thnx.

(I still think it's a terrifying virtue. And I don't get the name at all - why "Honest Tongue" for a MuVi effect???)

Barely. It's not the type of ability that one needs to use very often, nor repeatedly - so one Fatigue every now and then is not going to slow it down by much.

Personally, the more I think about it, the less I like it at face value, except for NPC's who are non-Hermetic. It's a better virtue for a nemesis than a PC, imo.

24

I’m fine with the idea of it, but I can understand your concerns and I like some of the suggestions I’m seeing. I’ll let Surefoot reply himself before I weigh in. It might help if you iterated your specific concerns and areas where you worry it might be abused.

25

I thought I did.

She casts or finds a spell, maybe one that is against the Code. And attaches anyone else's sigil to it. That's huge. It's a ticket to spy on everyone else, and blame it on others. (And given her Flaws and apparent Personality, if it's not a given, it's highly likely.)

More, it is a default "Dispel Magic" spell for any effect under Level 25 - she doesn't like the effect, she makes it one that is benign, if not beneficial.

It's a wide open "let's change this spell" ability, after the fact. It's practically the power of "do whatever I want" with any spell. And the fact that that is "impossible" by Hermetic theory only makes it worse.

btw - is that a Hermetic Virtue? If not, that's another cheat - Ex Misc gives a Major non-Hermetic virtue. (And if it's not Hermetic, why not!?)

Also, it's pretty slick rolling to have lived to be 60 and only have 7 decrepitude points and not a single crisis. 25 rolls, with better than an average 50% chance for 1 aging point, and over a 10% chance for a crisis on each roll? Not impossible, but statistically surprising. And that's assuming her Parens handed her a hefty longevity potion the day she was apprenticed (Lab Total > 70 or so), and no large roll showed up in the 23 years since.

26

How about a non-renewing resource, such as spending a Confidence point?

27

I didn't consider her from a min-max perspective, but now that you mention it...

Mark - yes, the silent x2 + required condition means that she just has to talk to cast spells, not say anything noticeably magical.

The aging - to be honest, I was somewhat unclear on the aging rolls. She accumulated a decent (I thought) number of aging points in abilities, and had a crisis that left her bedridden for a month... I dunno. Seven does seem low. I'll look back at that.

The XP thing - since Honest Tongue is her prior tradition and was not learned during apprenticeship (I think...) I used some of her pre-appprenticeship XP into it. It was that or give her some obscene score in baking. >.>

I missed the part where Ex Misc supernatural virtues were affected at all by the limits of Hermetic Magic, because they are (by definition) non-Hermetic. And honestly, it's not like I gave her the power to sneeze raw vis.

Though she's liable to consider spying, she can't keep her mouth shut. She's not malicious, just inquisitive - which leads to conflict, which leads to story.

Honest Tongue is a working title, because I needed to write something on the character sheet. It will change, probably as much as the ability does.

If you have any suggestions about how to pull it in, please tell me. I'm certainly adopting the fatigue level thing. I designed it while looking at the Banishing ability from Societates (get rid of any magical creature in the entire county if you beat an ease factor of nine), and I wanted it to be around that level of power.

One possible change: I could have to beat the spell level for a minor change, or double it for a significant change, essentially halving the level of spells I'm able to affect.

Any other suggestions?

28

I believe I have come up with the start of a background for my magus:

While residing at Crintera, she stumbled upon an ancient text describing the wild places that were once more common in the Alps. Centuries old, it is unlikely any of the sites mentioned in the text still survive today, but no other magus of the house she talked to could say for certain. They were all quite pessimistic about the probability of anything still surviving though.

Armed with youthful optimism, she sets out on her own with the old scroll, determined to see if any of the sites still exist. If any, by some miracle, remain, even partailly, it is her duty as a Bjornear magus to see that they are protected. Perhaps it would even be possible to bring back some of the wild places, and teach the humans the value of them.

So she has been wandering around the Alps for a few seasons now with no luck. Not only have the landmarks mentioned by the scroll changed over the years, she believes the local covenants are being purposely unhelpful. Disheartened, she decides to change her approach and starts searching for anything about the magus whos sigil is on the scroll, hoping that he left more behind that might help.

Attending one of the Hermetic fairs, she meets Jacopo, who hints that he might have seen that sigil before, back at his covenant. Seeing her excitment at the possibility, Jacopo extends an invitation to stop by whenever she wants, even going so far as to offer her membership at the covenant. Her hopes revitalized, it doesn't take her long to travel to The White Lady. Even if Jacopo's memory proves faulty, she has not explored this area of the Alps yet, and the covenant would make a nice home base to work from.

29

Ah - well, as a Hedge Mage-turned-Ex Misc maga, then yes, that would make sense. (She might want to take that as a Flaw?)

You can ask the SG, but as a peasant, she gets +0 to environment - a straight roll.

Then, you add Age/10 - rounded up. So, +4 thru age 40 - at age 41, it's +5, and at age 51, it's +6.

Any modified roll of 10 or more is bad (1 aging point to a characteristic), but if she rolls a modified 13 (or 22+), all hell breaks loose - you add Age points to any Characteristics of your choice to bump her to the next Decrepitude level - to total 5, 15, 30, 45 decrepitude points... (This is the roll that hurts.) Plus the Crisis roll, but it's rare not to survive that. (Hurts more in game, the CharGen rules don't address the time lost.)

At age 60, on average, a character will have suffered 3 crisis (for a total of at least 30 aging points!), lost a mess of characteristics, and have 3 decrepitude - and that's pretty dang decrepit!

They're not, not at all. But Game Balance still is.

And as presented, this "supernatural" ability would rarely be used by any but a Hermetic mage (or NPC, as mentioned above), making it indistinguishable from a Hermetic Virtue at the end of CharGen. Any mundane with this ability would attract the attention of the Order, and label the user as a Hedge Mage of some power - adequate, I'd suggest, to be given the "Invitation" - an invitation you can't refuse.

To be honest, I'd be far more comfortable with a Major version of Personal Vis Source. :wink:

Not every canon power is a good example or yardstick for every saga. That's why we're talking about it.

Lemme think about it.

If you're not planning on becoming the ultimate teflon Tytalus, what were you trying to achieve - as an end story effect/addition - with this power? If I am seeing much more than you intended, what was your original intention?

30

Game Balance (ptooey) :laughing:
JK

Game Balance is easilly breakible in Ars Magica, even if using strict RAW. Balance cannot be maintained by rules, only by the will of the players. But your question on the intent of this power is valid. What is the origin of this tradition? What do you/they seek to accomplish (if anything)? I myself would ask for a story justification to maintain versimilitude. I am not ovely worried about balance. Sure, you can do something I can't. Big deal. You will never be as fierce or fearsome as I, nor as handy wih the ladies :laughing:

It is a troupe call though, and I will go with the majority. It does not concern me personally, other than the fact that it does concern my fellow players.

31

Game balance is not an issue that concerns me, not in an individual saga. Game balance is only a problem if trust and everyone else’s fun are also a problem, so let’s address those issues directly, as we now seem to be doing. The heat of the discussion seems to have died down slightly, so I look forward to seeing it continue.

32

I love it. The only thing I want is for it to be a stronger pull. Why does she care about this text? Curiosity and youthful idealism are OK, but they usually don't motivate high-stakes, high drama, death-defying adventure. My first thought was, whatever this thing is in the text, she needs it for some reason. Maybe it will be a key step in something she’s Driven to do? Maybe she or someone she knows will be harmed if she doesn’t get it? What do you think?

33

It was brought to my attention that I used the noun "cheat" in my critique of the character as presented - that something was "a cheat". That was NOT, I assure you, an accusation, but a mere observation of the math and the RAW.

In my RL gaming group, we have the habit of using that term, "a cheat", to describe ~any~ hiccup regarding the rules - an errour in math, a braincramp in applying complex rules, a miscount of hexes, an interpretation that forgets some obscure detail of the plot - if 1+1 = 3, it's referred to casually as "a cheat", even if we know it was accidental. It's part good-natured ribbing, and part gentle elbow in the ribs, without worrying about intention.

Forgetting that X spell needed to penetrate is "a cheat", in this sense. Using the magic item that was used up in the last battle or left at home, or shutting and barring a door that was earlier broken to bits is the same thing. Or making an edit on a CharGen worksheet that doesn't get transferred to the final. We've all done it, without any malice or poor sportsmanship (or fully conscious thought, esp if late at night, ahem.)

All I meant was that if the virtue was a Hermetic virtue, it should have been excluded by the rules (which called for a "non-hermetic virtue") - not that SureFoot was intentionally trying to pull a fast one.

Falls -
~IF~ I were to run an "ice" mage, what is your ruling on ice vs basic Aquam, as in "water"? I could make a great argument that ice should be one magnitude greater, as the solid can/should do more damage than the equivalent of liquid - it's harder, it's stronger, it's more stable - & etc.

Shoot a blast of water at someone, and they get knocked back. Shoot the equivalent quantity of ice at someone, and they get knocked out! A coating of water is... well, wet. A coating of ice is slippery, strong, and hard. And etc.

Also, what is your ruling on Aurum creating "snow/ice" regarding "natural" - should a Blizzard spell be an extra magnitude for "unnatural" if it's going to be cast on a hot Summer day? (There is only 1 canon "snow" spell, and that disregards this little detail.)

I'm good with a stricter ruling - but either way. I'll have to invent 99% of the spells if I go this way - like I said, there are very few snow/ice spells in canon.

34

Hound, I figured that's what you meant - I'm a good-natured sort, and I appreciate the feedback. Lord knows I need it. :stuck_out_tongue:

I'll concoct some backstory for both her and her tradition - numbers aside, I have a feel for her personality and powers that I'd like to keep, though I'm more than happy to change her numerically. As a player, I tend toward roundabout and different uses of magic anyway, so a harder-to-use Ability would actually make me happier. It seems a good number of you have more experience with the game than I do, too, so please, feed me some numbers. I'd rather it was weak and easy to use than powerful and difficult, but I've no idea how to do the relative numbers and rolls for that and still keep things balanced.

35

Thanks.

But what, exactly, had you in mind with that, as an end effect?

The PeVi virtue you cited, that you based this off of, did one specific thing - banish a magical creature, or all magical creatures in the wider area.

This is a generic MuVi casting total, effect "to be determined as needed". That's one of the things that makes it so powerful and unnerving.

If it did only one, narrowly defined thing, that would help. But as is, on an existing, long-term spell, it can be attempted, even with 1 Fatigue, again and again and again, every couple minutes, until you get it right.

A sanctum has a stone door via CrTe? Nope, it's a door of sand, a related effect! A grog has the head of a donkey? Nah, he only has the voice of a donkey, when he laughs! Pilum of fire? No, it's a beam of light! And Sigils??? Dealer's choice!!!

Every conceivable MuVi effect is possible, as currently defined.

So, without knowing what sort of enhancement to the character/story you had in mind, what I'd suggest is the following:1) A specific effect, or target, or application. Change X dimension of Y type of magic. Maybe personal spells only, maybe only a certain sort of change.

  1. 1 long-term fatigue/use. If you don't get it right, it will hurt to try again and again.Between those two, it should be more in keeping with the power of the virtue it was modeled on.
36

Quite so. I’m interested to see what you do with it. If you do it, they could be nice additions to the spell wiki if you have time.

Use the base given in Societates, page 35.

Getting ice to do something unnatural vs. getting water to do the same are generally the same base level. Some exceptions exist (things that are natural for water, like flowing or appearing as a spout or fountain, are unnatural for ice and vice versa). Also, that book appears to have established the precedent of using a Rego requisite to fling created ice.

No magnitude bump, unless there is something else unnatural about the blizzard (contained to a small area, indoors, etc).

Good luck!

And with that, I’m off for the night. You kids be good.

37

This is a basic start. I've been reworking him since and will do so at least one more time. I tend to toss out an idea then I need to wrap my head around the character background which will lead to changes in the character. That being said, I'm working on the background now.

At the moment ( in writing the background) he likes his job but not sure what he wants to do. Part of his questioning. In short, this will be the year after he does his year of being a redcap. A senior Redcap places him at the White Lady and sets up a satellite redcap house at the Covenant. Also adding a Mercere gate to the Covenant. It will be part of the hook for why this Redcap is doing this ( basically leaving it open for anyone to play with).

This was me trying to describe the promiscuous expectations of the house. He will basically be a stud bull for the house at this point. It is how he was raised. It is expected of him. Lechery will get cut down to a minor as I add the senior Redcap as a minor story hook. I will get one more as it bounces around in my head today.

I will put up a more advanced character sheet tonight when I get the chance. I had one then I realized that I need to do a year by year because of the year he spends as a Redcap.

38

I have always thought the rules make Ice magic confusing to do. It makes sense that a create ice spell would be CrAqPrIg - Create the water then remove the heat. I'm interested in seeing what you do as well.

39

Okay, I have the rough draft ready. Two versions, one at Gauntlet and the ohe after 7 years of development...

At Gauntlet
Jonathan of Flambeau: John Brian of Yorkshire
Characteristics: Int +1, Per +0, Com +1, Pre +2, Str +1, Sta +2, Dex +0, Quik +1
Size: 0
Age: 31 (apprenticed age 16, gauntlet age 31)
Decrepitude: 0
Warping: 0 (0)
Confidence: 2 (5)
Virtues: +0 Gifted Hermetic Magus, +F Warrior (School of Ramius), +3 Gentle Gift, +1 Improved Characteristics, +1 Inspirational, +1 Self Confident, +1 Puissant Parma Magica, +1 Puissant Single Weapon, +1 Skilled Parens, +1 Venus’ Blessing
Flaws: -3 Compassionate, -3 Short Ranged Magic, -1 Difficult Spontaneous Magic, -1 Dutybound, -1 Mentor, -1 Weakness (ladies)
Personality Traits: Compassionate +3, Loyal +3, Brave +2, Dutiful +2
Reputations:
Combat:
Grapple:
Fistfight:
Longsword:
Soak: +
Fatigue: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, ko
Wounds: -1 Lt (1-5), -3 Med (6-10), -5 Hvy (11-15), Incap (16-20), Dead (21+)
Abilities:
Artes Liberales 1 (literacy), Athletics 3 (climbing), Awareness 2 (alert), Brawl 4 (grappling), Carouse 2 (socialize), Charm 2 (flirt wit da girlies), Code of Hermes 0 (???), Concentration 2 (spells), Etiquette 1 (magi), Finesse 2 (speed), Folk Ken 2 (men folk), Guile 2 (fast talk), Intrigue 1 (alliances), Latin 4 (Hermetic), Leadership 2 (combat), Magic Theory 3 (spells), Order of Hermes Lore 1 (???), Parma Magica 1+2 (???), Penetration 1 (???), Profession-Scribe 1 (copy), Stealth 1 (sneak), Single Weapon 5+2 (longsword), Strategy 1 (magical tactics), Survival 1 (mountains), York Area Lore 2 (???), This Area Lore 0 (covenant)
Arts: Cr 5, In 4, Mu 5, Pe 2, Re 5, An 4, Aq 2, Au 5, Co 5, He 4, Ig 5, Im 2, Me 2, Te 5, Vi 2
Spells Known:
MuAn15 Doublet of Impenetrable Silk
CrAu5 Air’s Ghostly Form:
ReCo15 Endurance of the Berserkers
ReCo15 Wizard’s Leap:
InHe15 Shriek of the Impending Shafts:
CrIg10 Lamp Without Flame:
CrIg15 Blade of Virulent Flame
ReIg15 Endurance against Heat & Flames:
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind; +5 Soak
ReIg15 Endurance against Cold & Frost
(see above)
MuIm5 Taste of the Spices & Herbs
InTe15 Howl of the Steel Weapons:
ReTe10 Invisible Sling of Vilano

And now 7 years laster...
Jonathan of Flambeau: John Brian of Yorkshire after 7 years
Characteristics: Int +1, Per +0, Com +1, Pre +2, Str +1, Sta +2, Dex +0, Quik +1
Size: 0
Age: 38, appears 36 (apprenticed age 16, gauntlet age 31, current age 38)
Decrepitude: 0
Warping: 0 (0)
Confidence: 2 (5)
Virtues: +0 Gifted Hermetic Magus, +F Warrior (School of Ramius), +3 Gentle Gift, +1 Fast Caster, +1 Improved Characteristics, +1 Self Confident, +1 Puissant Parma Magica, +1 Puissant Single Weapon, +1 Skilled Parens, +1 Venus’ Blessing
Flaws: -3 Compassionate, -3 Short Ranged Magic, -1 Difficult Spontaneous Magic, -1 Dutybound, -1 Mentor, -1 Weakness (ladies)
Personality Traits: Compassionate +3, Loyal +3, Brave +2, Dutiful +2
Reputations:
Combat:
Grapple:
Fistfight:
Longsword:
Soak: +
Fatigue: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, ko
Wounds: -1 Lt (1-5), -3 Med (6-10), -5 Hvy (11-15), Incap (16-20), Dead (21+)
Abilities:
Artes Liberales 1 (literacy), Athletics 3 (climbing), Awareness 2 (alert), Brawl 4 (grappling), Carouse 2 (socialize), Charm 2 (flirt wit da girlies), Code of Hermes 1 (Alpine customs), Concentration 2 (spells), Etiquette 2 (magi), Finesse 2 (speed), Folk Ken 2 (men folk), Guile 2 (fast talk), Intrigue 2 (alliances), Latin 4 (Hermetic), Leadership 2 (combat), Magic Theory 4 (10xps) (spells), Order of Hermes Lore 1 (Flambeau), Parma Magica 2+2 (Mentem), Penetration 1 (Creo), Profession-Scribe 1 (copy), Stealth 1 (sneak), Single Weapon 5+2 (longsword), Strategy 1 (magical tactics), Survival 2 (mountains), York Area Lore 2 (hometown), This Area Lore 1 (covenant)
Arts: Cr 6, In 4, Mu 8, Pe 3, Re 6, An 4, Aq 2, Au 5, Co 8, He 4, Ig 5, Im 2, Me 2, Te 5, Vi 3
Spells Known:
MuAn15 Doublet of Impenetrable Silk
CrAu5 Air’s Ghostly Form:
ReAu15 Endurance against Thunder & Lightning
MuCo25 Gift of Bear’s Fortitude
ReCo15 Endurance of the Berserkers
ReCo15 Wizard’s Leap: Mastered 2 (Fast-Cast, Stalwart)
InHe15 Shriek of the Impending Shafts:
CrIg10 Lamp Without Flame:
CrIg15 Blade of Virulent Flame:
CrIg20 Wrath of Reculed:
ReIg15 Endurance against Heat & Flames:
ReIg15 Endurance against Cold & Frost
MuIm5 Taste of the Spices & Herbs
InTe15 Howl of the Steel Weapons:
ReTe5 Unseen Arm
ReTe10 Invisible Sling of Vilano: Mastered 1 (Fast Cast)
ReTe15 Endurance against Steel and Stone

Twilight Scars & Effects:
Magic Sigil: cleanliness
Symbolic Sigil:
Equipment:
Encumbrance: 0
Background:
Development: 7 years
5 Years Bulk Experience – 150xps (30 x 5)
2 Years Seasonal Development – 8 Seasons
1 – Longevity Ritual (Lab Total 22)
2 – Spend season engaged in some arduous tasks
3 – Copy Lab Texts as my reward (120 Levels; Scribe 1 specialized in Copying)
4 – Invent Spell from Lab Text: MuCo25 Gift of Bear’s Fortitude (Lab Total 25, 2xps Exposure in Magic Theory)
5 – Invent Spell from Lab Text: CrCo20 Purification of the Festering Wound (Lab Total 23, 2xps Exposure in Magic Theory)
6 – Invent Spell from Lab Text: CrIg20 Wrath of Reculed (Lab Total 20, 2xps Exposure in Magic Theory)
7 – Invent Spell from Lab Text: ReAu15 Endurance against Thunder & Lightning (Lab Total 20, 2xps Exposure in Magic Theory)
8 – Invent two Spells from Lab Text: ReTe15 Endurance against Steel and Stone & ReTe5 Unseen Arm (Lab Total 20, 2xps Magic Theory)
Copied Lab Texts (120 Levels)
CrAu20 Fist of Jupiter
ReAu15 Endurance against Thunder & Lightning
CrCo20 Purification of the Festering Wound
MuCo25 Gift of Bear’s Fortitude
CrIg20 Wrath of Reculed
ReTe5 Unseen Arm
ReTe15 Endurance against Steel and Stone

Description of Spells
ReIg15 Endurance against Heat & Flames:
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
A low level ward that grants a +5 bonus to Soak against heat & fire related damage. There are similar Endurance spells granting similar Soak bonuses to other Forms. They are all the same level, and Jonathan knows variations that grant him a Soak bonus against Cold & Frost (ReTe), Thunder & Lightning (ReAu), and Steel & Stone (ReTe).
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)

40

Looking at Muto-Vim a little bit closer, I think I have a happy medium.

First of all, keep in mind that it is an Accelerated Ability. The key thing to remember is that it is an Ability. Though it increases in score as an Art, all other Ability related differences apply. It cannot be studied from vis, the Puissant (Ability) Virtue only adds +2, the rules for writing about them are different, and you can’t use vis to boost your casting total. And you don’t get to combine it with anything (except a Characteristic).

Two key ways that this Ability differs from Muto Vim is that it acts upon an existing spell, and that it is actually a spontaneous effect. Okay, two bonuses, a reason to have this Major Virtue instead of relying upon good old MuVi. Let’s apply the stipulation that it can only be an existing spell, not upon a spell as it is being cast as normal Hermetic Magic does. Still a reason to use MuVi on occasion. Now, what can he alter? He already ruled out R/D/T. That just leaves Internal Magnitude, like a Wizard’s Boost. It also allows him to Suppress or Alter the sigil of a spell, but I don’t know if it is possible to accurately forge another’s sigil, and even if it could, it should be possible to detect that it has been altered by secondary magic, which leaves its own sigil.

As far as Level of Effect, the Ease Factor for the Ability should be based directly on MuVi guidelines however, as I think this is supposed to be kind of universal, not when or what you use it on, but the effects of use. This means the calculations for Superficial Change, Significant Change, and Total Change.