There is a Tamed Magic spell that can hide/alter a sigil. I do not have my books with me but I know it is there. HoH:TL
There is a Mastery Ability that allows you do disguise the sigil as well.
Um, no - Hermetic MuVi cannot affect existing spells - that's one of my main objections. This little non-hermetic virtue breaks that Hermetic rule into shivers.
So it becomes a one-man Wizard's boost and a Dispel Magic rolled into one? (Because reducing that magnitude will neatly and completely negate an effect, as surely as I'm typing here.)
I'm still waiting to hear what SF was envisioning for the ability. Usually, when one builds a character, they imagine scenarios where a certain facet of the character will shine, where a virtue like this would get used, and how - once we know that, we can work towards that goal.
You have to let go of the "ice = cold" paradigm, which is mundane. This is magical.
Ice is the "solid" version of water. Just as magical mist is not boiling/steamy hot, magical ice is not freezing cold.
A wall of ice is ambient temperature (or the temp of the water that created it) - it's hard, but fire will not "melt" it any more than fire would boil away mundane water.
If you wanted to encase someone in ice, CrAq is adequate for the job. But they'd not be "preserved", the way that a body "on ice" is preserved - they would not be cold at all. PeIg is needed for that, and only the 4 Arts together would create a "frozen" block of ice (which is, indeed, painful for the caster.)
My problem as well. This requires a Hermatic breakthrough to allow existing spells to function. the Rules for MuVi are quite clear that it is cast at the same time as the spell it is effecting. Making it next to useless but get to the lab and make a breakthrough.
This is what I get from playing an elementalist in another saga. They are all linked!! Or not for other folk who do not understand....
That being said. Do you need a Terrum requirement to make it solid? Or is the state of water all governed by Aquam?
You misunderstand me. I know Hermetic magic can only affect spells as they are cast. I am saying that this non-Hermetic power works the opposite way, it can affect existing spells, but only ones that are already in in existance, not ones as they are being cast. So he can only affect spells after they are cast, and the power is useless on Momentary Duration spells. It is a non-Hermetic power, so it should be able to do something Hermetic magic cannot. By the same token, Hermetic magic must have something it can accomplish that this power can't.
As far as Reducing the Magnitude, he can squeeze it down only one, maybe two if used on a low level spell.
However, I also wonder what his intention is, and what the backstory of this Hedge Tradition is. I need that much more than I need things to fit neat and orderly in the scope of the rules.
Which is, in fact, the point. Ex Misc traditions are, by definition, outside Hermetic magic, so they are not bound by the limits. I quote from Societates: "[in Hermetic magic] potency has been sacrificed for flexibilty. In addition to the Limits of Magic, there are some areas of magic that some wizards found exceptionally easy, but are quite difficult under Hermetic theory." I took this passage to mean that Ex Misc virtues are not bound by the limits of Hermetic magic.
So it becomes a one-man Wizard's boost and a Dispel Magic rolled into one? (Because reducing that magnitude will neatly and completely negate an effect, as surely as I'm typing here.)
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Not entirely. I did state that (as under the guidelines for MuVi and with the additional inability to make a total change) it could only raise or lower the power of a spell by one magnitude. That's enough to, say, remove one sense from a MuIm spell, but not enough to remove anything but the most trivial effects.
In fact, I rarely do - I tend to build a character around a complete concept, but not with a specific goal in mind. I enjoy coming up with odd new reasons to cast spells - I've at least one Magus without a single spell I saw a reason for at all, and coming up with ways to make them useful is at least half the fun. I suppose the closest I can get in terms of feel is the "good faeries" from children's stories. They're unable to remove a spell, but they can change it subtly to make it mildly better or worse. To use your example, a spell that turns someone's head into that of a donkey could be changed (by one magnitude, here's the thing) into a spell that turns them into a donkey (removing "part" is one magnitude), or into a spell that turns their head into that of, say, an eagle (ground animal to bird is +1 magnitude), but not effectively remove it.
I think that Marko has the best idea of what I'm getting at.
I've come up with three changes that I'd be happy to make, either on their own or in concert.
i) It cannot be used on the same spell more than once.
ii) It uses fatigue
iii) If used on a spell not her own, it adds her sigil. If used on her own spells, it amplifies the sigil.
On a different note, here is Background Draft, Take 2:
Let's just call my character Jill until I give her a real name.
Early on in her Bjornaer apprenticeship, Jill experienced the Ritual of Twelve Years to awaken her heartbest. Not long after that, she and her parens stopped at a covenant to rest for a few days during their travels. A Bonisagus archmagus was visiting the covenant as well, and when he saw Jill, he immediately claimed her as his new apprentice. Oathbound, there was little the Bjornaer could do to dessuade George from claiming Jill.
Unhappy, Jill was every bit the disgruntled apprentice as George continued upon his journey. George was not put off by her attitude in the least, determined to teach her what he knew while they trekked across Europe. Eventually, George won Jill over with his magical theories and grand plans, making her realise the benefits that could come to all of the Order should his research prove sucessful. George was attempting to rebuild some of the wild magical places that once stood throughout Europe, but were destoyed by the increasing mundane population and the dominion. Excited by what this could do for Bjornaer magi and their ancesters, Jill became a willing assistant, eagerly helping where she could and brainstorming new avenues of research.
But not all was roses and rainbows. Jill's old Bjornaer parens would not do anything against George, but he did have to report what happened back to his House. The Bjornaer council was adament that no one, once initiated into thier heartbeast, is allowed to leave the House. The hunters were called upon to take care of this, declaring Wizards War upon George, enabling them to take down George or Jill.
George, being an elder archmagus, was adept at hiding his trail, and more than capable at handling the few Bjornaer that was able to find them. These encounters tore Jill apart, because she still considered herself part of the Bjornaer House and hated watching George kill them, but at the same time she believed in the research they were doing, and felt that in the end House Bjornaer would benefit by what they were doing. Jill tried to talk to the hunters, but they would not listen.
All the traveling took its toll on George, and they were forced to stop at a covenant when he took ill. He taught Jill Parma Magica from his sickbed, handing over her new voting sigil and declaring her a full fledged magus of house Bonisagus. She stayed with him till the end, where upon his deathbed he revealed that he did not even know what house she was from, or how smart she really was when he chose her as his apprentice all those years ago. He just wanted someone to continue his work once he was gone. He also has a will, which he had written, witnessed, and sealed by a Queasator a few years ago, and that Queasator is holding it. His last request from Jill is to take his remains back to his home covenant, The White Lady.
Vowing to fulfill George's last request and continue his research, Jill is carrying his body as quickly as she can to The White Lady to be interred, and to hear the reading of his will. George said that the Quaesator would know when he died, and was paid to travel to the Alps to read it. He was very close mouthed about what was written in his will, only promising that he left her his personal journals about his research.
Jill has to be very careful now, for she is no longer under the protection of George. The hunters are still out there, ready to kill her just because she is a Bonisagus with a heartbeast. She doesn't wish to stay a Bonisagus, preferring to return to House Bjornaer, but it is difficult trying to convince someone who is out to kill you.
It's never perfectly addressed and clearly defined, but it seems that Aquam covers it all, via Creo, or Rego (since it's a natural state.) The rules comment that the hardness of ice would be a Terram effect, if that was all you wanted (an odd distinction to make by a mage, but I suppose it's possible.)
It is a bit contradictory, that "Aquam concerns water and all manner of liquids...", but that includes the solidity of ice and the gaseous-ness of mist. But it does. The sidebar on page 79, "Elemental Forms", mentions ice in several different ways, including the ability to make hot ice using CreoAquam(Ignem) - it's magical, so it's all good.
I understand you perfectly - I hate the idea that simply calling a virtue "non-hermetic" allows it to radically alter the rules and break the limits of Hermetic magic.
I'm not sure you understand what you are suggesting. That opens a door that is ugly on so many levels. What Hermetic limit could not be broken, simply by claiming that your Ex Misc came from a Hedge Tradition that had broken it? Lesser Limits, Fundamental Limits? Hedge Traditions are not so limited, so it's all good, do whatever you want? Is that acceptable to you, MM? Sorry, but it's sure not to me - and that's exactly what you're suggesting.
Tone it down, guys, this is getting ugly.
Hedge Traditions are not limited by the Hermetic Limits, but they are limited by a) the storyguide and b) what determines a greater virtue. Any power that is within the limits of scale of a supernatural virtue does not mean "any power you can imagine". Curing a disease, for example, with CrCo requires Vis, because the permanent effect is a ritual. Curing a disease with the Greater Purifying Touch virtue (from the core rulebook) just requires a fatigue level. Is this a violation of the Limits? Heck yes, it's a violation of one of the fundamentals - you're doing something permanent without vis.
Honest Tongue
Some compromises are required.
This seems to be the part of the ability that’s most important to you, so let’s keep it. There is precedent for this. Just about all Ex Misc abilities in Societates break a Lesser Limit. Summon Animals doesn’t require an Arcane Connection and kind of allows the animals to “teleportâ€. Several of the abilities allow one-shot items to be created without vis, and there’s one that allows you to create lesser items without spending a season in the lab. The ability to affect currently existing spells (but not spells being cast) is in line with this, provided the rest of the power is agreeable to all.
Everything else seems to be up for grabs to do away with or alter - meddling with sigils, what exactly the effect does, what power of spell it works on, and whether it works on all spells (MuVi requires separate spells for each form). I think all those are going to have to be specified more precisely. The guidelines for designing supernatural abilities in Societates may be of help. The more I look at it, the more I worry about the ability to alter by multiple magnitudes when combined with its versatility.
I know exactly what you mean, which I why the bare bones of the ability are here to stay. But if you want the flexibility, some power needs to go, and if you want the power, some flexibility needs to go. Only Hermetic Magic gets to have both. From what you’ve written and what I know of you, I suspect you’d rather have flexibility than power, which means the thing about changing the actual magnitude of the spell might need to be scrapped.
One idea I had was limiting it to “superficial changes,†which is the first base under the MuVi guidelines in the core book. Unfortunately, it’s not explained what constitutes a “superficial changeâ€. To me, I think it means it can’t change the intent of the spell, but it can change the specifics - anything you would be able to specify freely once you’d designed crunch of the spell. I may have more to say on this later.
Ice
My thoughts are this (based mostly on Societates).
- Ice created with CrAq is like natural ice in all respects. This means that it’s ice temperature - which is chilly, but not supernaturally so. No requisites are required. Likewise for water frozen with ReAq.
- Created ice can melt naturally or be melted unless the spell specifically says it can’t (and then includes something to back that up, like a Rego or Ignem requisite.)
- Ignem or Terram requisites can be used to affect the coldness or hardness of created ice beyond what is “natural.†Usually, no additional Technique requisite is required to do this.
Jonathan
He looks great at first blush, Mark. I look forward to hearing more about his backstory.
Two mechanical things jumped out at me.
1)If you want, you can just say you got an “average†longevity ritual from your parens. This applies to all of you.
- Seasonal development (as described in the core book) is A-OK, but so is buying spells with points as you do pre-apprenticeship. You might be able to get more bang for your buck if you do it this way, especially if you have unique spells you want to invent.
Kerry/Jill
Yes! Exactly! This is great.
Though some of my spells are not from the book, they exist all over the place in other locations (other PbP magi, the Spell Wiki, and my Sub Rosa Article), so they are not new or original inventions. I get more bang for my buck using Lab Texts, and I spent two seasons acquiring the texts just to make it fair.
No, not really. (We've all seen ugly - this ain't it.) 8)
I'm not angry or even heated - I'm adamant, and concerned for both the direction of the saga and the casual enthusiasm with which this concept is being suggested.
There is a qualitative difference between healing a single ailment with "purifying touch" and changing any existing spell at whim, much less breaking any Hermetic Limit with the thinnest excuse during CharGen (which is what MM had been talking about.) The former is significantly limited and narrowly defined, the latter not in the least - which is what I had been pushing for, and where SF has moved.
Which is exactly how Greater Purifying Touch and other such abilities work, and is an end goal that I am perfectly comfortable with.
My objection is not about "violating" a limit - it's about shattering it, burning it, grinding it to powder, eating and excreting it, flushing it down the loo and forgetting about it. 
Um, citing your own article as support for your spells is not the most convincing of references. 
Nor are any non-canon sources, for that matter. Getting a spell on the web is hardly a high bar to clear.
Those all seem to spin from the core guidelines and comments - works for me.
"Flushing it down the loo"?
You are totally English, aren't you? 
Where does the slang term "loo" originate, and when did it start coming into use?
Nah, "toilet" was too awkward, and "crapper" a bit coarse and inflammatory, given the tone I was looking for. 
"Loo"? Iirc, that's one of those "nobody knows" things.
I use "can" or "John"
I was told that "loo" came from the French "Gard de luie" or some such, meaning "look out for the water!", because chamberpots would be emptied by tossing the contents out of the window. Don't know if that is true or not though.
Where are you from then? If you don't mind me asking that is. I am from Chicago.
That must be why it says "Location: Chicago" under your user name. (Assuming that is not that just a coincidence.)
I'll leave it to you to extrapolate this to deduce where I might be from. 8)
(In modern-ish French it would be "Garde de l'eau" - beware of the water.)
I thought Lacalifusa was some Mythic European location, but I am now guessing it stands for Los Angeles, California, USA. Am I correct?
As for the French translation, "look out for the water" matches my guess at the word origin for "loo" quite well then.
I found it! I found what I was thinking of when I made my original comment:
In the MuVi Guideline box: "If you wish to cast [a MuVi spell] on a spell being cast by another magus... your Penetration total for the MuVi spell must beat the other magus's Penetration total for the spell to be changed, unless you are cooperating."
A similar idea could be applied to the supernatural ability.
That's because you are trying to penetrate the resistance of the other caster. If they cooperate, they suppress their Parma so you can cast a spell on their spell as they are casting it.
Here are a few more thoughts on Honest Tongue. I don’t think we need to chew it to death, but since you (Surefoot) asked for specific ideas I’ll put a few out there.
Ok, here goes. Ultimately, I think we need to hear more from you on this, but I wanted to give you some structure since you asked. You can ignore all of this if you prefer.
Design goal: Preserve flavour, and keep as much versatility as possible while reducing it to the level of power of other comparably versatile abilities, like Mythic Herbalism or Siren Song. Sacrifice combat versatility before sacrificing other kinds of versatility.
I see the following limitations common to effects in Societates.
- Level 20ish Hermetic effects are quite difficult, and level 30ish should be nearly impossible without a high aura, investment in Affinity and Puissant, a good roll, and maybe some Confidence. Mythic Herbalism is a good example and the one I have experience with.
- Divine Auras are a problem, much more of a problem than for Hermetic Magic.
- Non-Hermetic magic (other supernatural abilities) should be easier to deal with than Hermetic Magic.
I think the best way to get those is to reduce it from an Accelerated to a regular ability, and make the Ease Factor the level of the spell she’s trying to change. For non-Hermetic effects, it’s the Ease Factor they had to meet to achieve the effect, or (Supernatural Ability)x5 for stuff like Shapeshifter. This hopefully satisfies the above restrictions and means with her current investment she’ll be able to affect level 10 spells consistently, level 15 spells with luck or a good aura, and level 20-25 spells with both.
To that end, here are a few suggestions. I hope this moves us closer to a compromise, but they don’t need to bind you if you don’t like them. You also don’t need to take them all, but I think an appropriate level of power would require taking 4-5 or more. I hope this gives you an idea of the level of power I would be more or less OK with.
- You must beat your opponent’s Casting Total, rather than the spell level (Kerry Blue’s idea)
- It cannot change Range, Duration, Target, magnitude, or base effect of the target spell. It only works on spells or effects that have already been cast with a duration greater than Momentary. It cannot affect ritual spells. Instead, it makes a superficial change to the spell. We would have to define superficial, but I think this could give everyone more of what they want.
- She must concentrate to keep the change going as if she were concentrating on a Hermetic spell. Perhaps she also has to keep talking
- Make it short range, conspicuous to use, and take a long time (say the length of a good conversation, so longer than most combats).
- Make it unable to affect sigils.
- Have it only affect a certain, very specific type of magic.
- Have it require fatigue