Character Creation for Nithyn (OOC)

Appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter mate, thank you.

I could probably very easily make the necessary tweaks to the build/history to account for taking it, I mean he did spend the last three years of his apprenticeship with the Flambeau at Castra Solis after all. That said, I've just gone ahead and leaned into making the most of his Gentle Gift, and swapped a few virtues around to pick up Quiet Casting x2. So no more words or gestures for Belisarius!

Speaking of his time at Castra Solis, I'm aiming to add just a little bit to that section here in a few to help flesh out his Flambeau foster-parens. After that, I'm going to move forward with his first year since there don't appear to be any other objections to the build?

I've created a character stats' topic for your magus. Put his final stats there at the time of his Gauntlet.

  • First post should always be his current stats
  • Second post should be his advancement log
  • Third post should be for custome spells he has
  • Additional posts can contain past versions of his stats (for example if you want to keep a snapshot of him at Gauntlet and another one at the start of play), description of his lab, enchantments of crafts, additional details, etc.

Once that is done, then you can start on the first year (only) of pre-play advancement here (not with the stats). Let us review that before you keep going. You can start with just a single season, or do the whole year if you prefer. Then we'll comment on it and give you the go ahead for additional years. That gives us a chance to check for assumptions before there are too many layers built on top of something that might need to be adjusted.

Minor nitpick: Subtle Magic isn't valid for Jerbiton's House Virtue, but Educated is.

I think Belisarius isn't able to learn Touch of Ymir due to Short-Ranged Magic, unless I'm missing something (your ReAq lab total is 18, you'd need a 20).

I can't locate a source for Touch of Ymir, Breath of the Impenetrable Fog, The Foggy Labyrinth and Shriek of the Impending Assault. Are they custom? If so, they should be validated first. Except for Shriek of the Impending Assault, the other ones seem a bit off.

This bit might be more critical:

You have a lot of concentration spells. I think you are planning on using Maintaining the Demanding Spell to sustain them during battle? Are you perhaps counting on fast-casting it while in combat? We had a recent discussion about fast-casting that started here, but I don't think we have formally settled for a position. If your concept hinges on heavy usage of fast-casting, maybe we should bump the discussion up once more.

I built it correctly, but forgot to adjust the list ranged (it was touch in the breakdown down at the bottom). So it shouldn't be a problem. Technically it doesn't need to be Concentration, but that's just ensuring that it stays frozen for the duration. Though I might just drop it down to momentary now that I think about it, but we'll see.

That said, the spell is from MoH. Though it's built as an item I do believe? Breath, Labyrinth, and technically Shriek are custom. Though Shriek is literally just a core spell with a requisite. And if you have any specific concerns beyond just a gut feeling, I'm happy to talk about it!

Yes, and not really? That is to say, yes, certain spells would be sustained, but they're not the sort of thing that you're aiming to cast during combat. The only exception possibly being Breath.

Yes, you can expect fairly heavy use of fast casting. And having a discussion about how to deliver touch range spells is likely warranted. All I'm saying is that Belisarius is going to have a sword as a talisman, and since that counts as an extension of his touch... Well, between that and Subtle Magic, you can see where I'm going.


Where would be most appropriate for this? As I would be interested in resolving that as well.

Didn't have the time to elaborate earlier, sorry if my comment was a bit rushed.

Touch of Ymir: actually I just missed a more elaborate description of how much water we are looking at (with the extra size) and what was concentration supposed to do (I imagined it was to keep it frozen, but didn't want to assume).

Breath of Impenetrable Fog:

  • Individual size for Auram is 100 paces. To reach 1 mile in every (horizontal) direction (about 3200 paces across) you need size +3.
  • Shouldn't it have R:Touch? Personal seems really off to me.
  • To make the fog move as a mass wouldn't you need a Rego requisite? Otherwise, it should behave just as regular fog.
  • Minor point: consider that if you are going to use it in the siege of Constantinople, this spell might severely hamper allied forces (it's hard for you to cast True Sight of the Air + Mantaining the Demanding Spell in a really large number of allied combatants,and 1 mile is a really large area. A lot of people, from both sides, would end up in the midst of the fog).

Foggy Labyrinth:

  • Same consideration as previously with regard to size, except that 1 mile across is roughly in the middleground of +2 and +3 size. Still, you'd need at least +3.
  • MuAu has no baseline 2.
  • "In some places, the fog is as solid as stone". No Terram requisite for that?
    • Combined with the previous point, maybe Baseline 3 (since transforming one property lowers the level by 1 magnitude)? You don't want to actually transform air into earth (base 4) just to give it solidity (which would still require a Terram requisite). But maybe we want Arthur's input on that, since his magus is focused on Muto and this has some interface with a few spells of him.
  • Rego, on the other hand, seems unnecessary to me.
  • Minor point: I think its valid to discuss what is the effect you expect to see when someone with True Sight of the Air tries to cross this labyrinth.

Makes sense.

Humm... I think some of your spells would heavilly benefit from being T:Group, to reduce the amount of things you need to cast. With your leadership you can lead 4 soldiers. I expect you to be casting... about 10~15 spells before battle, depending on the specific details (5 TSotA, 5 MtDS, and a couple of support spells to create fog, get invisible, detect shrieking assaults, etc?).

Do you have an immediate usage for Opening the Intangible Tunnel that I'm missing? Or you intend to expand it's usage with other spells post gauntlet? Maybe drop it and another one to bump a few other spells to group? It's just a suggestion.

The Table Talk topic, I suppose. But after the discussion is finished the result should probably be registered in the houserules post (which should, perhaps, be changed to "houserules and clarifications").

And this is what I get for not double checking other people's work and just accepting it blindly!

I'll likely end up dropping Labyrinth as it's not absolutely critical, Breath is the more interesting spell. That said, I get why Breath being personal could feel a bit wonky, but it's no different than say Last Flight of the Phoenix out of HoH:S. But it may be worth adjusting it to touch so he has the ability to reach out via tunnels to cast it over an area. I'll have to give it some thought! As for size, yeah, I said about a mile, but in reality, it's probably closer to about half a mile. 100 paces being the base, so it would be 1000 paces at a size bump.

Fair point about group/tunnel, so here's my thought on the matter. Yes it's more casts, but given his low casting totals, I'd rather have to cast more than risk fatigue every single time. The other thing I've been thinking about is learning a spell container. Have his 'buffs' precast into said containers, and suddenly he's able to pass out a variety of spells fairly quickly. Assuming he goes about casting them in the proper way. But that's relatively easy to do.

As for the tunnel, it allows him to reach out and do things at range. Not much, but still, it's more than he can right now. So yeah, I very much have plans for it in the near future. Think some Me/Im spells.

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A 10 time increase in volume translates to a 3.16 (roughly) increase in area. =]
So, +2 size to go from 100 paces to 1000 paces.

About casting it several times, I'm actually thinking that you are eventually going to botch... But well, mastery exists for that, eh?

Not sure how I previously calculated Touch of Ymir to 18, now I'm getting 14... but since it's touch, no problem.

Your Opening the Intangible Tunnel, OTOH, is Sight, which means a lab total of 20 is required for you to learn it (Short-Ranged Magic). Your ReVi lab total seems to be 19 (Re 7 + Vi 5 + Aura 3 + Int 1 + MT 3)?

And this is why I teach social studies and not math. I've long consigned geometry to the dustbin in favor of random history factoids.

Bingo! Mastery it to 1-2, and have a familiar with a Gold Cord of 2 or so, and you're really sitting pretty in most instances. Aside from heavy auras that is.

@Nithyn I think I made this edition just after you posted, so it probably flew under your radar.

Was probably going to change his Magic Theory specialty to Vim. Gets a bit more use out of it. That said, he also has a Puissant in Magic Theory. So even without the change, his lab total should be fine.

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Missed this. The Target for Creo is the thing that is being created. The way I see it, CrIg at Personal is barely allowable because it can be used to make an object radiate light or burst into flames. So you are either creating a light that emanates from yourself (such as Mien of Helios, from MoH p.110) or incinerating yourself (LFotP).

I really can't see something similar with the CrAu guidelines to create fog. But I think it should be possible to zap yourself with the guideline to create lightning? =9

Creating something around yourself requires at least Touch range. The difference with The Last Flight of the Pheonix is that it immolates the caster himself -- the damage this causes to those around him are basically a side effect.

Note that every custom spells should be presented here in details, and verified by the troupe, before being posted in the character sheet. Which is one reason that I usually prefer that magi mostly learn standard spells during their apprenticeship. Custom spells is for when the magus has the freedom to decide for himself what spells he wants to learn.

During apprenticeship, the vast majority of the spells are taught directly by the master -- from those he knows already, The master will try to fit the selection to the specific nature of his apprentice's magic (meaning relevant virtues and flaws), but he won't spend seasons inventing a whole selection of customs spells just so that his apprentice has ideal spells. A "good enough" selection is often the rule.

Indeed, making fog solid would require a Terram requisite, as well as add a magnitude. But I see that the spell is no longer listed.

I would quibble with this part specifically only in that the difference is only where the target of the originating creation is. You can CrXx anything on top of ... whatever target, including yourself. Which in CrIg for light or fire either one is clearly established. But you could do the same say with water, and create the water on top of yourself. It just doesn't give you any ability to reach out (at all) with such spells as you are always the very center of the amount of whatever that is created. The self immolation is, nominally, a byproduct of the fact that you have created large amounts of fire that overlap with yourself in a (normally) negative way. 8P

And the example of Last Flight of the Phoenix also would appear to establish a use-case of such CrXx at Per/Mom/Ind using size bumps to increase the amount created is also ok.

It occurs to me that a (the?) defining difference between CrXx at Personal vs. at Touch is again that Personal can't move the volume of whatever is being created off from being centered on themselves. With Touch you could declare, as an example, that the Fog being created "starts" where you reach out your hand, but the volume then extends away from you. That you are not "inside" the space where you create the thing.

This seems an important distinction to make.

Not sure it's just about that. You mention Cr[Fo], but not all Creo's are equal.

Usually the target of Creo is the thing being created. CrIg and CrVi are the exceptions where you can create said thing (light, heat, flame, magical effect) anchored to an object, a creature or a place.

IMO it should also be doable for Mentem and Imaginem, albeit we have no canon examples for either (and in the case of Imaginem there would be a strong overlap with Muto).

Note that these are all immaterial Forms. Except for a few selected guidelines (such as CrAu to lightning) all the other Forms deal with matter. You can't create matter where there is already matter.

Alchemist’s Revenge (HoH: S, pg 35)
CrAq 25
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
Splashes a target with acid, inflicting
+15 damage if it penetrates Magic
Resistance. At the storyguide’s option, the
acid may damage the target’s equipment.
(Base 15, +2 Voice)

I think that is entirely the point of basically all Cr[Fo] style attack spells. You create something (hazardous) "on" your target. And it does bad things to them (as desired). To include matter (such as acid) in the example.

You could just as easily do something like a Cr(Re)Te to make and control a giant golem body around yourself at Personal.

I don't think this is ever not the case. It is just a matter of what exactly is being created and how does it interact with the world/other things.

This is interesting conceptually. I'll have to read up on this when I'm not so tired. Can you expand on this concept? I'm not sure I agree, but I'd like to explore it further while getting more at what you mean.

A counterexample that comes to mind is a CrAq for creating a permanent water source. You could cast that ... basically anywhere. And it is going to stay there and keep flowing. I sometimes question whether it would be realistic to say cast a "create spring" spell in a canteen for example. It doesn't seem all that realistic in some ways ... but it appears perfectly achievable. And is it really anything substantively different than casting a high end spring/geyser to create a permanent water source and make a new river that tied to that new fixed source?

I answered Vortingen through a private message to avoid derrailing (more) Nythin's topic, but if the discussion seems interesting to someone else just tell me and I'll bring it to the Table Talk (or just copy everyone in the message). =]

@Nithyn, sorry for taking up your space! Very interested in seeing how Belisarius is going to deal with the fall of Constantinople and what will be his motivation to move to Tugurium. =]

On that note, if you think it makes sense, Regulus would be willing to invite them (both Vorsutus and Belisarius) as Protected Guests (check our charter), probably by letter... That is, out of politeness at least. Or maybe Arthur already has plans regarding the arrival of the second wave of magi? Idk.

No specific plan. Just that they asnwered the wave of letters indicating openings for members. Your magi just arrived later.

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