Character Creation for Vortigern (OOC)

[Nithyn]

@Gaxxian

No, its just that the book does a very poor job showing us the full process of providing full magical animal sheet examples and making it clear that the natural Qualities are there, but just not written in the example sheets (and you can find several errors through the book that makes everything even harder to understand -__-).
An example about it can be seen in the pg. 70, the "Cat Character Template". There you can not only see the qualities duly listed, but there is also the following sentence:

Cats are the exception, not the rule as far as that goes. As far as I can tell, it's the only time that qualities are mentioned on a sheet?

@Gaxxian

Then, reading the text from magical character creation we can read (pg. 32):

These might be taken directly from the Book of Mundane Beasts appendix, or generated using the rules in the Bjornaer chapter of Houses of Hermes: Mystery Cults (pages 38-43), but note that animals created using those rules have free Qualities that are used to determine their base Characteristics and other natural features, and that these are different from the Magic Qualities described below.

In no place says that you must remove them. And it tells you that these are Free.

Again, you seem to be forgetting the sentence before that, which puts the whole thing in context.

To generate a magic animal character, you can use the stats of the mundane animal as a character guide (see the Character Guides sidebar).

To me that pretty clearly changes the meaning of your quote. First, a guide is just that, a guide, not a requirement. Second, when added, the bolded section comes across as a warning that natural qualities do things like add to characteristics that should be taken into account when using said guide, as it will throw off character creation.

@Gaxxian

In no place says that you must remove them. And it tells you that these are Free.

Nor does it say that you get them.

@Gaxxian

Then during the Animals of Virtue (notice that Animals of Virtue are different than regular Magical Animals, they are special and they have requisites, they are also the only way to pick Mythic Virtues btw. Is Skepsi an Animal of Virtue?) creation, at the Finishing Touches part (pg. 56):

The only real requisite is for them to have an essential virtue, a thing that pretty much every example ignores (the irony isn't lost on me). But yes, yes he is.

@Gaxxian

Animals typically have natural weapons in the shape of teeth, claws, or horns; and may have a Protection score provided by their thick hide, fur, or scales. Additionally, some animals have bonuses to certain types of rolls — goats are good at climbing, cats are good at jumping, and so forth. In Houses of Hermes: Mystery Cults (pages 40–43), these are called Qualities and are natural properties of the animal rather than the Magical Qualities discussed in Chapter 4. You should consult with your storyguide for details of all these final touches.

Again, it doesnt tell: just ignore/remove those. And, being Animals of Virtue (so, special), it just tell you to "ask to the SG".

Ultimately this means it's up to @Arthur to adjudicate in the case of Animals of Virtue, but as you say, they're a special case.

@Gaxxian

Show me the Skepsi concept, removing the magical features and leaving only the mundane part, and let's see how much of a "crow" he is in his core

Pretty sure this is the sort of thing that @Vortigern was talking about in regards to tone mate. But to your point, it's quite easy to do. Just look at his virtues/flaws and abilities and you get a pretty solid idea (more or less). That said, ultimately it's impossible to separate Skepsi from his magical side entirely, as that's just not how characters are built in Ars. This isn't nWoD or something where we're stacking templates on top of one another.

@Gaxxian

In general, i will always concur that the book does a poor job explaining what to do with the base features of the animal (and its specially eggregious that it fails to do so in the case of animals since nearly all magis will need to make use of the rules to make one earlier or later).
But what it does is telling again and again that magical beings are improved regular beings. So, as in the Itzhak's example, an eagle doesnt loose his mighty sight just because its magical.

I won't disagree that Ars is often a mess of unclear rules and conflicting examples mate! But to your point about the eagle, that's not necessarily true. An eagle made of wind very well might not have the sight afforded to his mundane counterpart, but an eagle of virtue would likely have a personal power that would give it sight on a magnitude that its mundane counterpart could never dream of.

@Gaxxian

You can defend your position on the rules as much as you want, but you cannot defend that the process creation for Skepsi wasnt opaque at best. Again, if i didnt took the time to analyze the sheet, we wouldnt be talking about this, like... at all.
Not just proposals weren't made, but we dont have anything about the process creation of that familiar up until now that you (Vortigern) uploaded the sheet into your character thread. It just "poped" out of from nowhere in a thread where only finished things should be.

Uh, I posted the basics of a sheet almost four weeks ago now and literally asked for feedback? In this exact thread.

@Gaxxian

Thats what made me upset, worried and frustrated. Because i'm seeing hints of a search for powergaming but i dont feel like being its backed the open approach that it deserves.

The irony here is that giving Skepsi and other familiars natural qualities actually boosts the power level, not reduces it, so your argument just doesn't make a lick of sense to me?

@Gaxxian

So, lets wait for more opinions. I think that maybe i've scared the people with my tone Sorry again for it if thats the case.

I think we've got a few folks who aren't particularly active on the weekend, so I guess we'll see on Monday!