Character Development: Magus Vorsutus of Flambeau (Player: Vortigern)

I have a question I'd like a broader consensus on.

For Imbued with the Spirit of (Form) there is something that requires some interpretation.

What is the consensus view of what would qualify as a Magic Might creature associated with the Form, in this case Vim? There are some very different ways of interpreting this and I'm obviously biased in this instance.

I think that this is an excellent point, and I'm glad it didn't slip through the cracks. Because the negative social aspect of the virtue help balance out how extremely strong it is.

Vim is hands down the trickiest, as there's almost nothing at all that is specifically just associated with Vim. With the exception of a few spirits perhaps. But even then, most align to some form or another. With that in mind, I admit that I lean more towards the guidance we've been given when it comes to familiars. Vim can apply to any magical being.

So my gut reaction is to say that it's going to trigger a reaction from any creature associated with the magic realm. Yup, I know this is a harsh take on things. But that's the price you pay for being literally imbued with tasty delicious raw magic.

Again though, this is just my two cents, and I'm certainly aware that this is a RAW vs RAI situation open to a ton of interpretation. And as always, this is something that we as a group should decide.

I think we have roughly speaking four magical principles upon which to base judgments.

  • Familiar Binding

Wherein Vim has been cited as being applicable to binding any magical animal (arguably any magical creature if the appropriate familiar virtue is known) as a familiar. This could be seen as thus including any/all magical creatures in the Form or as the Form being apt to the binding magic itself. But regardless it establishes some breadth.

  • Might Destruction
  • Might Warding

This gives a certain ability to affect any Might bearing creature to a certain extent. Warding and Harming the magic thereof. These abilities can affect Might bearing creatures of any Realm.

  • Spirit Control

I'll note that this is the only type of creature that you can actually control only with Vim. You can shoot a Dragon say with PeVi Might Destruction but you can't ReVi to control the Dragon. Again spirits of any Realm are potentially affected. We also know that nominally Demons and Angels fall into this category.

One could posit that all of the above effects besides Spirit Control manipulate, ward against, or destroy the magical element present with such creatures rather than fully encompassing all magical/mystical creatures (of all Realms) with Vim as a Form. Whereas spirits, angels, demons, and arguably any other immaterial/all spirit creatures of raw magic as it were are explicitly and fully creatures of Vim. That is the definition I arrived at the more I thought about it.

I always thought that meant "Might: # (Vim)." The core book does say

The Form with which the creature is associated, for warding purposes, appears in brackets after the Might Score.

That would be the strictest interpretation. And ... frankly to the benefit of Eadric/Vorsutus, so I can't say I would mind.

I had forgotten it's just Magic Might rather than any Might.

There are a lot of powerful Vim-aligned spirits.

I am not sure if the terminology is intended to rule out other Realms or not.

I also lean towards this interpretation.

It seems like we have a consensus for only things explicitly of the Form (Might: X (Vim)) as the interpretation.

Indeed. Now excuse me while I go research every single creature aligned with Vim that I can find. For uh reasons. :wink:

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:scream:

I, uh, hope you find your reading very interesting.

@RafaelB what did you have in mind here?

Just as food for some inspiration, here are some ideas that I can't get out of my head until I write them down.

  • The Lombard/Lambaird Covenfolk are mostly from a formerly Royal line of Leinster, Ui Broin a branch of Ui Faelain. They lost their lands to the Normans and since have become the Covenfolk of Lombard. (TCI pg 63)

  • Lombard is home to the druidic magical lineage of Raghallach as well as being a Flambeau Covenant. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that some of this druidic knowledge seeped into the Covenfolk.

You could go as light or as deep into a kind of "beast master" or "mercenary captain" concept either one as you wished and have plenty of room to develop things and grow in whatever direction you were interested in. And all while having a very deep and intuitive connection with Vorsutus/Eadric, perhaps knowing him for more than even the length of his Apprenticeship.

Eadric was apprenticed to several of the experts in various skilled trades during his background, one idea that occurs to me is what if this character was one of them, making him a former mentor?

My initial idea was to make him the leader of these guys. He would be a mundane with some knowledge of the magical realm (enough to know there are true magical dogs and wanting to train them), but not enough to know the difference between a magus and a random guy with dowsing. Vorsutus would be his first contact with powerful magic, and first real chance of finding and training a magical dog (he already has experience training mundane dogs).

However, he could totally be someone coming from Lambaird. In this case I figure he would be moving to Inchmore out of a sense of duty (maybe he doesn't think he has taught all he could/should to Eadric?). In this case I think he would already have a previous background with magical hounds, perhaps even the magical friend flaw.


One thing I wonder, would he be able to lead a trained group composed of both dogs and men? RoP:M says a trainer can use his Animal Handling instead of Leadership to lead animals in combat (p.82), and that if his scores are outside of a 5 point range "he does not count as part of the group when determining their combat totals".

This makes me think he could lead a trained group of men using his Leadership score (and he is part of this group) and direct a pack of dogs using his Animal Handling score (he does not count as part of the group for combat purposes, but he counts as the leader in case he is knocked out, for example). Does this makes sense?


Another thing is that on the books, different formulae are given to generate taming points.

  • RoP:M uses Int + Animal Handling - Creature's Might. It explicitly says Animal Ken does not help one to train an animal (box on p.82). For a mundane animal, Creature Might equals 1 + 2*confidence score.
  • A&A (p.120) uses Int + Animal Handling -Creature's Might, but the text says to add Animal Ken as a bonus to this total. Creature Might for mundane animals is 1 + Confidence.
  • Grogs (p.93) uses Intelligence + Animal Handling + Animal Ken - Creature’s Might, but Creature Might goes back to 1 + 2*Confidence.

The animal is trained when the trainer generates a number of training points equal or in excess of the creature's might. This means a trainer must generate a training total of 2+ to train a mundane beast.

LoM (p.51) uses the formula Int+Animal Handling (does not subtract creature might). Points accumulated to train creature equal 1 + 2*Confidence. For a mundane beast (LoM does not even acknowledge the possibility of training magical beasts) this means a total of 1+ is enough. No mention to Animal Ken.


The books were written by different people in different times, but what I get when I try to conciliate this is the following:

  • Taming points generated: Intelligence + Animal Handling + Animal Ken - Creature’s Might (overriding RoP:M)
  • Required points to tame a creature: Creature Might
  • Mundane creatures might: 1 + 2*Confidence.

Does this seem like it?

I believe Animal Ken should provide a bonus. Additionally I would say that Beast/Animal Lore (Nature Magic) should. It also occurs to me that if you have Animal Ken that Entrancement will work on Animals (this is explicitly state somewhere). If he had something else like "Beast Commanding" as a beast master hedge art, it should as well.

All depends on how much of a beast master you want to build. You can dial it up and down depending on how much you want to invest in it. We are seemingly ramping into a high powered game so far, but I can get behind whatever your concept is I think. And a Flambeau accompanied by an armed band is ... like peanut butter with more peanut butter!

As for whether to make him from Lombard or from the Road Mercenaries that Eadric/Vorsutus encountered ... I would be fully supporting either way. In fact when I was writing that background I wondered to myself if anyone would be interested in playing those mercenaries as a companion!

I'm a bit slow on the work with this guy, but he is a bit more fleshed out than last week.


Finn mac Ronan - mercenary with a penchant for taming

Keypoints on his life:

  • Always liked dogs and animals. As a kid, had some degree of understanding on the language of beasts (Animal Ken).
  • Loved to hear epic stories about adventures. Dreamed of having a magical dog, just like in old folklore tales, going a-questing.
  • Life happens. Grows up. Heard of magic dogs and beasts, never seen one as far as he is aware.
  • Becomes a practical man. Pretend he doesn’t understand animals. Becomes a tamer for a minor noble, taking care of his dogs. Marries a lady, has kids, regular life, all is good.
  • Conscripted to fight in a war. Somehow he excels as a scout/hunter kind of guy (mostly because he can listen to the animals talking about the other side).
  • Is injured. After his recovery, the war has ended and his noble died/lost prestige. He ends up becoming a mercenary to make ends meet.
  • Met Vorsutus. Realized true magic is at his reach and he has both an opportunity of having a strong backer and a real shot at finding and taming a magical hound.

Virtues:

Mercenary Captain, Animal Ken, Master of (Form) Creatures, Warrior, Piercing Gaze, Clear Thinker.

Flaws:

Disfigured OR Lingering Injury.

Abilities:

Animal Ken, Animal Handling. Misc hunter abilities (Bow, Awareness, Hunt, etc).


A few questions to help me with his design, some on the story side of things, some on the mechanical one:

  1. What is Vorsutus looking for in a companion, generally speaking? Besides "some muscle"?
  2. Anything you, Vortigern, is looking for?
  3. Not sure what would work best, for him to be a member of the covenant or an independent guy who only comes by when he needs help or when summoned by Vorsutus for a specific purpose.
  4. Re: Mercenary Captain. Not entirely sure on how this would work, in practical terms. He’d have a bunch of henchman he can command at will? How would this differ from simply being a captain at the covenant? Thoughts?
  5. Feels like asking for a hand and taking an arm, but would it be reasonable for Penetration to add to the taming total against magical beasts (capped by Might)? Part of me says yes, part of me says no, a third part says to not push things too far. :grimacing:

Once you are done chatting with @RafaelB I had an idea for a companion. Was reading through the Gruagach and the more I thought about things/read, the more I liked the idea of an ungifted Gruagach mystical tattoo artist as it were. Blame @callen for the inspiration.

Even just having Give, Blessing, and Shape would offer him a ton of options. And the tradition is very known for having ungifted folks with some of the arts as it were. Plus I have some potentially fun story ideas involving him and the Kingdom of the Isles.

But again, it's just an idea, and I want you to finish up your current companion talk first!

So, I'm thinking on toning down on the tamer side of the character after all. His V&F wouldn't change, I'm just not keen on having his major goal being finding and taming a magical dog. I also decided to make him a more effective leader (and perhaps a good commander in case we use the massed combat rules from Lords of Man? One can hope!).

I'm looking at the following spread of V&F, but we can always discuss if the direction they are pushing the character towards is appropriate:

Virtues:
Mercenary Captain (+1), Animal Ken (+1), Master of (Form) Creatures (+1), Warrior (+1), Piercing Gaze (+1), Clear Thinker (+1), ** Enduring Constitution (+1), Puissant Leadership (+1), Affinity with Leadership (+1), Well-Travelled (+1)

Flaws:
Curse of Venus (-3), Missing Eye (-1), Rolling Stone (-1) (Gr 83), Infamous (-1), Greedy (-3), Nocturnal (-1)

I picture a hardened man, who started as a kennel master for a noble but was forced to join the army (the fact that the lady of the manor fell in love with him had something to do with it). He became a scout (being able to communicate with animals helped a lot with that), until eventually being injured (missing eye) and discharged. Joining other men he ended up pushed to the position of leader.
He became infamous, first in the army, then as a mercenary (Reputation: Always Defeated/Loser/Coward) because his priority is always going home with the largest amount of people alive. For example, if he believes the best course of action to ensure the survival of a merchant group is to surrender all the goods, this is what he will do, no hesitation (another example of this behavior is him promptly surrending to Vorsutus). But he is not cowardly, simply pragmatic.

How does it sound?

A "leader of men" could double as "face" character to go in and speak with mundanes as well. Though this might be partly offset by being infamous etc. (Not that this bothers me!) One quibble is that if he was wounded in combat during his life in theory his Missing Eye could be healed hermetically. Though if that occurs we could easily just move that point into something else and call in character evolution.

Vorsutus would I think get along rather well with such a character! (And the practical solution to a situation might look rather different with Magus helping you!)

If you aren't super enthused with the beast master line of minor magic, we could think of something else if you prefer. Up to you. Do you see whatever magic he has as being an innate talent that developed during being a kennel master etc. or something he has somehow pursued during his life?

Yep, his Missing Eye could be healed... But we'd be looking at a 6 pawns Ritual at least, right? Him being worthy of that should be reasonably distant.
Think like this, after accumulating some merit through his actions, instead of gaining a magical sword or armor (equivalent to minor virtue Minor Enchantments) he gains magical healing equivalent to removing a minor flaw. Roughly the same.

Dunno... It would still be interesting to tame a magical beast someday, and a mercenary with Animal Ken is more interesting than one without (I'd say his magic is innate, by the way).

I wasn't thinking of going beyond Animal Ken and Master of Creatures anyway, so it's mostly a design choice about his abilities. Instead of starting with a higher Animal Handling he will have a higher Leadership. He will still tame animals on his spare time, and would still appreciate the chance to tame a magical one, but it won't be as central to his personality.