Am I reading this right that your character was taught a level 50 CrIg spell at apprenticeship? And spent a burst of vis to buy a single item?
Yes on both points. It is all up for debate, as usual.
- The level 50 CrCo spell at Apprenticeship is because he was developed by his Parens as a mundane crowd killer in a belief that the Order may face a major mundane threat in the future.
- The item is a suit of armour with three effects on it. It is just expensive to have a Verditius work on things for you. (3x the vis used in the enchantments 2x3x3=18 plus the vis cost to open the item 9x3 = 27 points plus 5 vis for bringing out the Item of Quality.
Aethelston gives me the creeps. On the one hand, this character is a beautiful example of how deadly a hoplite can be. On the other hand, this character means that all the other characters can simply watch any fight from the sidelines, unless we restrict our future adventures to fighting monsters underwater and monsters that are immune to fire (ghosts and fire beings). I guess the good news is that we'll usually leave this monster at home because his blatant gift will aggravate mundanes and fae, and everyone. Seriously, as a storyguide, I'd hate this guy, because how can you set your campaign power level so everyone has fun and encounters are not trivial?
One last bit of moaning: It's tractatus (u-declension). Aethelston is a weird name. Aethelstan would be proper Old English. Aethelston sounds more like 7th century and definitely more to the north (Bede would be proud of you).
Very last bit of moaning: I asked a few questions on character advancement right before Aethelston was posted. Please don't forget them.
I've had a look through Athelston now, and have the following comments:
- The sheet's in a bit of an odd order, which makes it hard to navigate - generally I'd order things more or less in the order they're in in the sample magi in the book, with characteristics and virtues and flaws at the top, and spells at the bottom.
- I agree with other people that the level 50 spell at gauntlet is a bit much, despite him having the lab total for it. Maybe consider developing it later?
- Please can you call it something other than "Magic Missile"? Apart from the OOC reference, it doesn't particularly fit throwing around fire.
- I'm not getting a good idea of his character or goals (aside from "Overconfident"). Could you post some fluff on him? Whilst you're at it, I think he needs another personality trait.
- I think you're missing 5xp at gauntlet? I make him as having 235 xp in abilities, 120 xp in Arts and 50 xp in mastered spells (ignoring native language) = 405 xp, when I'd expect him to have 45 + 15 x 5 + 240 + 50 = 410
- You appear to be taking 2xp per season for Correspondence, when it should only be 1xp unless I'm missing something. On a related note, your Correspondences don't always seem to relate to what you've been studying - note that you've got to be Corresponding on an Art or Ability that has been the subject of the character's research or reading in the last 4 seasons (this is a clarification in the House Rules thread to the similar but vaguer restriction in Covenants pg 90)
- Who are your Correspondents, and what subjects are you talking to each of them about?
- Note that your longevity ritual base vis cost depends on your age, not your lab total.
- To make a talisman, you first need to spend a season opening it as a standard invested item, then to spend a second season attuning it. This means that the initial opening vis cost is the standard based on the item's construction (so either 15 for the ruby, or many for all of the components combined), rather than based on your Arts / Magic Theory, and that you need to spend an extra season on it.
- There's not a lot of point in mastering two Similar spells for magic resistance, given that the Magic Resistance mastery helps against all Similar spells.
- It would be useful to see his lab totals when he's learning spells, especially when he's close to the limit.
- Note that if you don't have the necessary casting items, you can't cast Potent spells at all. You do have some back-up spells without Potency for this situation, but it will leave him substantially weaker.
- Concentration of 1 is going to hurt any time he has to start making concentration rolls
- How did he go from 49 to 7 vis in Autumn 1227?
- I think Verditius pricing should allow for the reduction in opening costs they get (but this one isn't clearly defined in the books).
- What are you basing the Excellent +3 on for the armour? That's going to require a Craft total of 21, and a minimum Craft level of 9 - neither of which are impossible, but they're pretty high.
- Flag to MT to check that he's happy with 3 Creo vis as the Personal Vis income (I understand you're making use of the House rule allowing you to pick up extra minor virtues over this period. Note that this needs the story to be written into the character's background, though).
Not sure exactly what you mean by "handle" - MTKnife needs to say how much people get (and any confidence awards).
Grogs are generally advanced by the person who made them, although that's not a hard and fast rule.
8xp is the standard for a season spent practicing in a place where it's the native tongue. I think it's hard to claim that at the tribunal, let alone for the rest of the season, so I think it would be 4xp only.
I think the tribunal was fairly early on in the season, so probably take the same loss as Gregorius, which is a third of the season? There are different rules for studying and distractions from the lab, but I'd be inclined to say you need more of the season than you've got left for the lab set-up.
I don't think I'm going to quibble with 3 pawns of Cr as a Personal Vis Source--Viola's produces only two Technique pawns, but it can also be produce 4 or 6 pawns of Form vis, if she chooses, and that flexibility is valuable.
That beind said, I tend to agree that a one-dimensional combat monster is not going to raise the fun factor for anyone involved. Would a real magus actually develop himself that way? Even if he is a devoted hoplite, does he have other magical interests (or even non-magical interests) into which he's put some effort?
The tribunal was short enough that it would only suppy the minimum story XP, which is 5.
I agree with Salutor that Practice in Greek is going to be worth less than 8 XP. To me the issue is less the length of time (since the tribunal took place early in the season, and some Greek is spoken at the covenant), but more the fact that neither the tribunal nor the covenant is entirely grecophone--if Asena went out of her way to talk in Greek with Greek-speakers, I'd be willing to say 5 XP (analogous with practicing a trade or craft with immediate feedback). Not every individual could manage that level of persistence (I know I've never been able to--the natural tendency is to duck back into social circles in which you can communicate more easily), but Asena's Brave and Overconfident personality traits at least make it plausible.
Scott
The stories in this saga tend to be social, discussion, and problem solving. Could be fun to watch Athelston try to adapt and struggle in situations where he cannot flame-burst the challenges. My apprehension comes from eventually a combat wizard will fight something that is too tough, that any challenge for Athelston will decimate a grog or non-combat magus, or he will get really unlucky on rolls (not fun to think a character will die due to dice-rolls).
So if John and MTK are ok with this, then I'm fine with it too. I am happy to run a side story to entreat the Flambeau with some challenges and opportunity to show off what a fire-mage can really do.
The sheet's in a bit of an odd order, which makes it hard to navigate - generally I'd order things more or less in the order they're in in the sample magi in the book, with characteristics and virtues and flaws at the top, and spells at the bottom.OK I will change it around
I agree with other people that the level 50 spell at gauntlet is a bit much, despite him having the lab total for it. Maybe consider developing it later?OK will swap it for Ball of Abysmal Flame, reduce his Creo by 9xp, reduce Rego by 1xp and put the 10xp in Intellego and buy Day Vision of Vis with eth 15 spell xp
Please can you call it something other than "Magic Missile"? Apart from the OOC reference, it doesn't particularly fit throwing around fire.OK, if I take it I will come up with a more fiery name
I'm not getting a good idea of his character or goals (aside from "Overconfident"). Could you post some fluff on him? Whilst you're at it, I think he needs another personality trait.OK will check and add
I think you're missing 5xp at gauntlet? I make him as having 235 xp in abilities, 120 xp in Arts and 50 xp in mastered spells (ignoring native language) = 405 xp, when I'd expect him to have 45 + 15 x 5 + 240 + 50 = 410 OK will check and add the 5xp
You appear to be taking 2xp per season for Correspondence, when it should only be 1xp unless I'm missing something. On a related note, your Correspondences don't always seem to relate to what you've been studying - note that you've got to be Corresponding on an Art or Ability that has been the subject of the character's research or reading in the last 4 seasons (this is a clarification in the House Rules thread to the similar but vaguer restriction in Covenants pg 90)My bad, I thought it was 2 not 1.Will change the whole correspondence set
Who are your Correspondents, and what subjects are you talking to each of them about?Will specify when I edit the above
Note that your longevity ritual base vis cost depends on your age, not your lab total.OK will check and alter
To make a talisman, you first need to spend a season opening it as a standard invested item, then to spend a second season attuning it. This means that the initial opening vis cost is the standard based on the item's construction (so either 15 for the ruby, or many for all of the components combined), rather than based on your Arts / Magic Theory, and that you need to spend an extra season on it.
There's not a lot of point in mastering two Similar spells for magic resistance, given that the Magic Resistance mastery helps against all Similar spells.OK, mis-read the talisman section, will alter
It would be useful to see his lab totals when he's learning spells, especially when he's close to the limit.OK will put another column on the table
Note that if you don't have the necessary casting items, you can't cast Potent spells at all. You do have some back-up spells without Potency for this situation, but it will leave him substantially weaker.Will think this through and add a non-potent fire spell
Concentration of 1 is going to hurt any time he has to start making concentration rolls Good point, will adjust
How did he go from 49 to 7 vis in Autumn 1227?Armour estimated at 50 Vis, +8 vis from Personal Vis Source and +5 vis per year in Autumn
I think Verditius pricing should allow for the reduction in opening costs they get (but this one isn't clearly defined in the books).OK, your call on what you want to charge in vis for the armour
What are you basing the Excellent +3 on for the armour? That's going to require a Craft total of 21, and a minimum Craft level of 9 - neither of which are impossible, but they're pretty high.OK, I thought I read somewhere that magic items need to be enchanted in to high quality items. Your call on what that needs to be, happy for +1 rather than +3 if that fulfills the requirement
Flag to MT to check that he's happy with 3 Creo vis as the Personal Vis income (I understand you're making use of the House rule allowing you to pick up extra minor virtues over this period. Note that this needs the story to be written into the character's background, though).He is, as per the earlier post
They need to be at least superior quality (pg 70 of C&G). Getting Excellent +1 is reasonable; up to MTKnife if he wants to go above that.
+1 should be enough.
In any case, I'd like to see you reply to the concerns about the character concept (as opposed to the rules issues).
Scott
I think the combat focussed magi is a valid concept for a Flambau as per the house write up. However, I don’t believe he is onlyfocussed on combat, given his ability to learn and write effectively. I did not have him write during the propose character advancement as I felt bringing Summa and Tractati he had written to the covenant at the point he entered the saga would a bit cheeky. He will be writing and contributing to the covenant library once he is there. His lack of ability in teaching reflects his low Presence and the problems that gives in him, along with his Blatant Gift, In him considering the finding and training of an apprentice. I see him as having few, if any, friends and seeing his life’s purpose as “serving the Order” whatever the personal cost. That makes him focussed and dedicated, not one dimentional, in my opinion.
I suppose a key question is "is this a character you're going to have fun playing outside of high combat stories?"
If the answer is yes, I have no fundamental objections to the character, although I'd like to see the background and character fluff (right now, the Book Learner and Good Teacher doesn't obviously gel with the rest of the character). Ironboundtome's offer to run a high combat adventure for him seems like a good idea.
I am at the point of a complete rewrite and reposting following the very useful comments made so far. I had not realised the story was so focussed on social interaction. I want to be engaged in as much as possible in the stories and the current design does not really allow that. I have time over the coming weekend to present a more rounded character with back story.
Stories in Ars Magica tend to be driven at least to an extent by the interests of the magi involved - historically the covenant has included a scout, a Seeker, another Bonisagus and a Merinita, so it's probably not shocking that the stories have involved a fair amount of exploring and investigating things (plus some fae, although a lot of Viola's adventures have involved working towards doing things to one specific fae rather an directly interacting with them). There's been, I think, four fights over the years: one where Gregroius, Alcimus and Fray killed a giant rabbit, one where Alcimus and Fray fought a horse to submission, and a couple with Viola in faerie regios.
That said, there's been the potential for more fights; in particular, I think a lot of magi would have kicked off against the amazons when we went looking for Tasia, and that had the potential to be a significant battle (or we could have flown above them in an invisible ship and sniped them). Gregorius is certainly expecting things to come to blows with them eventually (and is quite glad to have some Flambeau at the covenant).
This is all a fairly long-winded way of saying that combat ability is unlikely to be completely useless, and may at times be decidedly useful. You probably do want to have some other interests as well, though, as there will still be a significant amount of time that isn't combat focussed.
In principle, a combat-oriented magus is fine--I'm just hesitant to see one who's over-optimized.
There is one logistical problem with a combat-oriented character in an online saga, though: combats go very slowly online. That's the reason I've tried to avoid combat as much as possible in the past, or at least to play it out without going into excessive detail.
Scott
There's a weird phenomenon where sometimes players will make a character with tons of combat advantages and tons of social disadvantages on the premise that they can always talk their way out of social disadvantages, and if they're good enough at combat, it doesn't matter anyway. In ArM this is even more exaggerated because if you play a magus who's socially dreadful, you can always just swap out and play a companion or a grog during the social stories, and bring the magus out for the battle stories. (The worst is when a player who's a bully does one of these, then it's "everyone in the party better do what I say, or I will murder ya!" Sadly common in bad D&D games and Vampire games.)
This character would be principally useful in two ways that immediately come to mind:
- As a grim specter of death while fighting the Amazons or the Mongols.
- As a generator of drama for the covenant, because his very presence causes so many people to be afraid or uncomfortable that he draws negative attention to all the other magi.
Really the immediate response of "Hmm, combat-optimized, I don't knowwww..." is because so many people have had bad past experiences with bad players who use that to bully other players or force all story resolutions to rely solely on combat. But we're all in for a long-haul game here, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and hope that we can all agree mutually on stories that we'll enjoy, where each character has room to contribute or things to do.
The over optimisation is a result of my mind set as a scientist which drives me to drive to efficiency, not a need to be uber-powerful. I make the numbers work in all characters I create, in all gaming systems. It is a quirk of my character and one that bring many a laugh at my regular physical gaming sessions and at the live role playing events I participate in.
I don't intend to bully other characters or players at all,It is not my style. I like team player, one wins all win type games which is why I would not play a competitive house like Tytalus. The whole I win you lose ethos does not entertain or amuse me at all.
I have redesigned Athelston to be much more socially capable (lost -4 Pre and Blatant Gift, added some social skills) while being less combat focussed with some more generic spells (Conjure the Mythic Tower and the Bountiful Feast) which along with his two healing spells gives him more options. I should get the post updated over this weekend ready for another review by your selves.
There is a pro-side to having a combat-oriented magus on our side, too. It allows the rest of us to indulge pet projects without having to worry about "leveling" our characters the wrong way.
I like heroes, as long as they have some kind of cryptonite.
OK. Athelstan (thanks for the suggested name and location change Pralix) is ready for review.
Please can you post a new version of the character rather than overwriting the old version? That way we have a proper history (and we don't have to keep digging back pages into the thread).
It shouldn't be any extra effort, assuming you start by copying the code for the old version.