Characteristics of 6+

I notice that the duration for the spells that permanently increase your characteristics are Creo Corpus or Creo Mentem, and goes on to note that it's level 30 for a maximum of +0, with an additional +1 to the maximum per magnitude in level. Since +5 is the absolute highest you raise a characteristic with Creo magic, I presume the guideline is Muto for getting higher than 5? What are the levels and guidelines for this?

I would assume they fall in line with the normal CrCo or CrMe ones, so +1 to a maximum of +6 is 1 magnitude higher than +1 to a maximum of +5. Also, I think I would rule them Mu(Cr)Co or Mu(Cr)Me instead of just MuCo or MuMe. So I still think of them as extensions of the CrCo or CrMe guidelines, just that past a limit of +6 requires a Muto as a primary, relegating Creo to a requisite. But maybe I'm too strict on that. Do others think they should just be MuCo or MuMe?

It depends on how you achieve those bonuses. For example, turning into a giant should give you an appropriate Strength boost. But in general, +5 is the absolute limit for human potential. If you want to go beyond that, you can't simply stay a human. To get a Presence of +6 you'd have to turn into, say ... uhm, a dragon (I guess). So, you'll need adjudication by your troupe on a case by case basis, including if it's possible at all to gain that bonus (Intelligence +10, for example, seems unlikely).

I feel that thematically you should not be able to create something ex nihilo. You cannot mathematically increase Perception to 6 or 7, but must pull it from the realm of Idea.

So your magus should emulate the Eagle of Virtue to increase Perception beyond 5, therefore requiring an Animal requisite. Or maybe it is an airy spirit and you need Auram.

Of course, if this is too much work for too little flavor just skip it.

Oh, and there's always Mythic (Characteristic) from HoH:TL as a flavor to take.

Last I was asked this, my answer went something like this:
"Not invented yet. Some form of breathrough really. Ofcourse, once you have the first +6, the rest are probably fairly minor to invent."

My take is similar to those of ezzelino and Tugdual, the use of muto to get more than human stats should involve the target changing into something that isn't quite human. +5 is the maximum human potential (I'll concede mythic characteristic blurs this a little).

Also, even though with magical qualities from Realms of Power magic you can get an intelligence of >+5 I don't like allowing intelligence to go higher than five because of the setting info in RoP: Divine and RoP: Infernal which peg +5 as the limit of the power of reasoning. Higher value require input via divine revelation to achieve. That's a setting thing that I might bend for a player who had their heart set on it, as making sure people have fun is of paramount importance.

But would you allow a spell to transform a person into a half rhinoceros sort of creature with a strength higher than 5 without a breakthrough?

Does obtaining a size of +3 require changing into something not quite human? Does having an inhuman characteristic by itself already fit the definition of being something not quite human? I'd imagine a magus delving into the philosophy of Anamnesis to grant themselves higher Intelligence, or delving into the principles of Intellego magic for greater Perception, if such an excuse were truly needed.

Yes! For example, a giant.

I would not phrase the question this way: I find it misleading. Remember that a characteristic is a mechanical "description" of something. If a character is mechanically represented as having an inhuman characteristic, then there must be something inhuman in him to justify that mechanical representation.

Except that the spell that enlarges a person doesn't make them a giant, unless the definition of giant is "human that size +2 or greater." At which point, we're back to my original point, the inhuman characteristic is itself the defining trait of what makes the subject inhuman. My apologies for this, but these answers don't actually help and comes off as pedantic. "What are the guidelines for using transformation magic to get characteristics of greater than +5?" being answered with "by transforming into something with a characteristic greater than +5" is borderline tautological.

Judging by the responses so far, the consensus to my original question seems to be that there are no guidelines.

That is correct, there are no guidelines (Muto Corpus, or otherwise) that cover improving a Characteristic beyond +5.

That being said, there are guidelines for transforming into other creatures that, in turn, have characteristics above +5. Which brings us back to the "Muto Corpus (Animal)" effects, as described above.

Base Effect 10 (transform into animal), +1 Part (if you don't want to transform entirely into the creature), maybe +1 complexity, maybe +1 for size? In this scenario, a "Strength of the Rhino" effect would probably get you a TMNT Rocksteady-style form for the duration of the spell. (Or one of those Rhino guards from Disney's Robin Hood.) Strength above +5, probably natural armor and weapons and whatnot.

Maybe more to the Centaur mode, but I would say than the MoH guidelines to change utterly the human shape would work too (and it's pretty the same without the +1 complexity), and so could make one human posses +6 Characteristics.

Well, with a lack of guidelines, what consequences should be addressed for creating spells that bestow 6+ characteristics? Would such a spell work like the Creo version and only grant a +1, or should it place said stat straight to 6+?

These issues are why I suggested following right along the CrCo and CrMe guidelines. What should be more difficult should not become easier because we're trying to write a new guideline that is reasonable. So I would keep the +1 going, raising the limit. However, you can incorporate lower guidelines within a spell, too (commonly requiring requisites). For example, let's say I want a spell that gives +2 to Stamina with a limit of +4. The base for +1 to Stamina with a limit of +4 is CrCo50 (serf's parma). So I would make +2 to Stamina with a limit of +4 start at CrCo55 (then add R: Touch or whatever). I would also note how difficult it is to raise Soak with MuCo, and that Soak is but one piece of what Stamina provides. So from all of this my though is Mu(Cr)Co60 is a good base for +1 to Stamina with a limit of +6. Keep adding 1 magnitude to raise either the limit or the increase by +1.

On a related note, it is clearly easier to go straight to a higher value if you do something more uniformly applicable. For example, change the target into a bear if you want to give the target high values in Strength or Stamina. This provides a lot more bonus than can be easily obtained via CrCo, even when sticking within the CrCo limits of +5. That's because we're going with a simpler shift (the whole target to a new whole). And there are drawbacks (claws instead of hands, no voice, looking like a bear instead of a person, etc.).

Overall, as you can probably tell, I feel like Muto has two different routes. The simpler shows up in things like Cloak of Black Feathers and Shape of the Woodland Prowler. The more difficult shows up in things like the spell (something Bear's Fortitude or similar) that adds to Soak. I think both routes should remain available. So one option for high Strength could be to turn the person into a giant (easier), while the other is to just increase the target's strength (harder).

Callen, what about the need for all spells 55th level and above needing to be a ritual?

(51st and above, I believe.) What about it in what regard? The base for +1 to a limit of +5 is already CrCo55 or CrMe55 and thus a ritual if cast, and I don't see why going further should be any easier. So it's a ritual if cast as a spell; that's fine. It could be put in an item, too, since it's only a ritual due to its level.

Here are my 2 cents

Human perfection canot have characteristics beyond +5 hence, CrCo momentary rituals canot reach beyond +5 as per the limit on essential nature. You can continue to increase using these same rituals beyond +5, using the same base level ladder, but it will also require a duration.

As an alternate path, if you are willing to leave the human nature aspect, I like to use the MuAn Base 25: Grant a magical ability and apply it to MuCo to give things like:

MuCo 35 - Per | Sun | Ind | - Hercules' Gift
Grants the target +6 of strenght which is roughly the strenght of 10 men. While under the effect of this spell, you feel the power of the Gods of Old flowing through your body as if you were invincible an in truth, you are a force to be reconed with! Surely, your human nature will catch up and once the effect ends, your mortal body pays its due as you need to roll for aging with a penalty equivalent to the number of rolls you rolled that involved strenght. The Cult of Mecury are particularly fond of this spell but use it wisely. They take offence in seeing the use of it abused by the less enlighten and take a join or be subject to their wrath approach with those that profane their way of life.
(Per +0 | Sun +2 | Ind +0 | Base 25 (Give a magical ability))


Oooh, I forgot about the base 25 for MuCo giving magical abilities. That seems like an easy way to give yourself the Improved Characteristic (or even the major Essential Trait) Virtue.

Am I to understand that one can give yourself more than one virtue with a single spell by just increasing the magnitude of the spell (+1 per additional virtue)?

Which book has the guideline to give a magical virtue with MuCo?

If I had to guess, it's an extrapolation from the core book. A minor magical trait (ability to see in near darkness) is only a base level 2, and MuAn grants beasts major abilities such as breathing fire. Being better at something seems like a rather natural expression here.