Clarification on enchanted objects

Hi all !
Sooo, our ice elementalist was blasted by nothing else than a fireball. We have now 2 verditius in our team, and some question regarding enchanted objects arise :

Can you fast-cast a defense against an effect in an object ? I assume it is like fast-cast against a non-verbal non-gesture spellcaste, but am I right ?

If yes, what is the initiative for a power invested in a trap-device ? (if you trigger the effect, what is the initiative you have to beat to fast cast against ?)

Can you invest spell mastery in an object ? (for this object to be able to fast-cast or whatever), I assume not but better ask.

What is the defense of a magical object ? I remember that the object keep the mundane resistance (so you can destroy it easily with a warhammer in many case) but I am not sure.

Last question : can you dispel a magical effect created by an enchanted object with "Unravel the fabric of (Form)" ? The spell say you can cancel "spell effect" (and magical effect created by an enchanted object is not a spell) but the guideline say that you can cancel any magical effect of the form. Do you need a "Unravel the fabric of (Form)" AND "Unravel the fabric of enchanted (Form)" ? (I tend to say that you dont need two spell for each instance, because it favors a lot enchanted objects)

True last question : regarding cancelling magical effect/spell : does the penetration (in object) or the amount you roll when invoking a spell that is higher than the level of the spell count in the level of the spell ?
Lets say : your enchanted device invoke a 10 level spell with +20 penetration.
For cancelling the effet (with unravel the fabric for exemple), do you have to cancel a 10 level, a 30 level or a 20 level (10 level +10 level for +20 penetration) effect ?

Thanks all for your answers and be safe !

Sure. You can fast-cast a defense against basically anything, right? I would agree that it's non-verbal, non-gesture, though a really blatant triggering action might help.

From the core book:

You can use one effect from one item each round, using the appropriate trigger action for each. You must make any Targeting rolls that are necessary, but do not roll for Fatigue. You use an enchanted device at an Initiative point equal to Qik + Stress Die.

No, but you can make similar alterations, such as adding penetration. With regard to initiative, there is a +3 initiative modification in HoH:S.

They are tougher than normal equivalent items. This covered in C&G p.77&79.

Sure, you can dispel an effect. Dispelling the item itself will require a Ritual. One such Ritual is written in the core book, but it's off by 5 levels, if I remember correctly. The guidelines are in HoH:TL.

Those things (penetration, uses/day, etc.) don't matter for things like dispelling, MuVi (internally), and Warping. They do matter if you try to disenchant the enchantment, since they're part of the enchantment itself.

Thanks for you answer

By trap-device, I was speaking about an unmanned object with a latent trigger effect (like a book exploding in a fireball when opened). Can the magus opening the device fast-cast a defense and against wich initiative ?


Yes, from Core:
A maga may choose to cast a Spontaneous spell extremely quickly, as a response to an attack or other surprising event

If yes, what is the initiative for a power invested in a trap-device ?

Up to you:
In combat, the Ease Factor is always the opponent’s Initiative Total. Other EaseFactors should be set by the storyguide.

Looks like. If you fail the roll, you can always fast cast guessing blindly, perhaps defaulting to some Rego teleport or Creo Wall of Wood/Stone/Ice/whatever.

In other circumstances, the maga must work the Form out. A Perception + Awareness roll against an Ease Factor of 15 minus the magnitude of the effect is needed.

Can you invest spell mastery in an object ?

No. I believe there's an item enchantment option to increase item activation initiative, but don't quote me on it.

What is the defense of a magical object ?

Same as a similar object, with the caveat that enchanted items tend to be of greater quality (and more resistant., depending on the levels of enchantment. Check out p.77 in City & Guild

Last question : can you dispel a magical effect created by an enchanted object with "Unravel the fabric of (Form)"

Sure! Just need a suitable PeVi, like the one you mention.

regarding cancelling magical effect/spell : does the penetration (in object) or the amount you roll when invoking a spell that is higher than the level of the spell count in the level of the spell ?

do you have to cancel a 10 level

Nope, you just need an appropriate dispelling spell. Penetration does not come into this. In this case you need to be able to dispel a 10 level spell

Hope that is useful, and that I am not terribly mistaken!

Bah, ninjaed by callen!

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I would set a number based on how cautious the player said the magus is being. Perhaps somewhere between 18+ (not paying much attention, not worried) to 6ish (really cautious, trying to look out for a trap right there). I would use the table on page 7.

So we did the good thing !

Thanks all. I think I have my answers now. Objects are really useful, but spellcasting remains really important even in a high vis saga, for the mastery and the fast-casting ability that objects cant match.

Regarding this, Like Zer I have been wondering, if you have an appropriate Unravelling the fabric of (form) spell or a general purpose PeVi spell such as wind of mundane silence with the fast-casting mastery could you use those to defend counter-spell? I am asking because I am playing a magus with the flaw "Weak spontaneous magic" so using spontaneous magic to counter things is not really my characters forté and I am looking into alternatives, such as fast-casting dispels.

Yes, this is possible and can be advantageous.

But while spontaneous magic is adapted to the countered spell and thus works at lower level (ArM5 p.83), the PeVi formulaic spell's level needs to fit the level of the dispelled magic as by ArM5 p.160 box Perdo Vim Guidelines.

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That is only fair, as there must be a price to pay for having a major hermetic flaw.

There is also the notable downside that the strategy I am hoping to rely on requires my character to spend considerable downtime mastering, Perdo, Vim and spell mastery on the relevant spell. All fair given the situation. Thanks for your advice.

I agree with that, because it is specifically specified in PeVi guidelines (even if one can argue that PeVi can only dispel an already present effect, not an effect in formation when the foe is spellcasting), but in general, I tend to think that a fast-cast mastered formulaïc spell need only to be half-level of the foe spell, like any spontaneous fast-casted magic, if the mastered formulaïc spell is relevant...(mastering a good-all-around spell like a wall is mandatory for any magus going into a fight).
Therefore, mastering all 10 "Unravelling the Fabric of" is not the easiest way !

MuVi affects magic while it is being cast. PeVi affects it afterwards. But in any case, fast casting can adapt spontaneous magic better to the spell it is to counter, while formulaic magic is more rigid.

Sure, but if you make that argument, you basically rule out counter-magic in general. For example, you cannot quench a fire from a CrIg spell with CrAq fast-cast defense until the fire exists. As soon as you allow fast-cast defenses against magic outside of using only MuVi, you allow this possibility.

One can see fast-cast as a sort of Certamen : when raw magical forms clash each other before being really present in the physical world as fire or water. Since you have to make out the form you are fast-casting against, it can means that preliminary magical energies are not obvious and in another state of being for a few moment. Therefore one can argue that "Unravel the fabric of" only act on effect and not on "to-be effect", but fast-casting is the instinctive ability (or knowledge for mastery) of using this few moment of "to-be effect" to counter the "to-be effect" of the other spell.
I dont say this is right, but I dont see anything ruling this out either.

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But you can do that fast-cast defense against a dragon's fire breath, etc. This works against not just Hermetic magic, and those effects are commonly not woven together right then and there like Hermetic magic is.

This is, how fast-casting against an Hermetic effect works. Unless you cast MuVi, you cast on the already cast magic effect as it unfolds.

You can also fast-cast to defend against a sword, an infernal dragon's breath, or a grog thrown by a trap. In all cases you first have to assess the situation and then verrry quickly react to it by spontaneous magic.

If you have mastered a formulaic spell for such quick casting, you cannot adapt that as well as a spontaneous spell, but you have more power in it.

If you succeded with your Percption + Awareness roll, you can - at the very moment or shortly after the fire comes into existence - complete your CrAq and extinguish it. It is two completed magic effects that interact - not a spell affecting magic while it is still being cast.

Exactly. Ultimately, the point is that the fast-cast rules implicitly require being able to time things like this.

Reading my book again, in the part were you learn how to discover the power of an unknown enchanted object, you can read "the level of a power in an enchanted device include any effect modification that affect the power". Is that an exception of the rule "the level of an effect is calculated without the effect modification" ?

No, it's not an exception. There are two different things: the level of the effect and the level of the enchantment. If you care about the enchantment (lab total to invest, investigating, dispelling, etc.), then you care about the level of the whole enchantment, which includes maintaining concentration, penetration, etc. If you care about the effect it produces (MuVi from within the item, Warping when it affects someone, etc.), then you care about the level of only the effect, leaving out maintaining concentration, penetration, etc.

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