Clarification Request: Muto Vim: Alternate Magic Types

Would you see this as firmly barring use of Muto Vim spells on non-Hermetic Magic, or on requiring justification and/or supporting functional knowledge of the non-Hermetic Magic to be affected?

ArM5 p.159 says: currently (that is 1220) MuVi can only be used on Hermetic magic.
Going beyond with Hermetic magic requires breakthroughs - likely several Large or Hermetic ones: one for each particular tradition.

Generally, I'd agree this firmly prohibits use of Muto Vim on non-Hermetic Magic. There are some edge cases where I'd say it can be done; Merinita can still Muto Vim a Faerie spell, a Chthonic Magus can do the same with a spell utilizing Infernal parameter and so on, because these individuals integrated these non-Hermetic "magics" into their own and have full understanding of how they work.

...Then there is the Early Punishment for the Sinful Witch in RoP: Infernal, which completely violates this convention by targeting an Infernal Supernatural Ability, spell, Maleficia or Demonic power, and turns the effect into a physical flame that burns the one previously affected by said power.

Only way I'd say that spell came about was because of Experimentation and positive side boons or something like that. Venatores definitely had to do some experimentation for some of their spells, since some of them are 1 for 1 translations from Maleficia guidelines.

That's a PeVi spell, specifically Pe(Mu)Vi(Ig). PeVi can be used on non-Hermetic stuff.


I'm assuming its been errata'd then? The version published in the book is a MuVi(Ig) spell, the first of the section, with only the Ignem requisite accounted.

Yes, it's in the errata:

Early Punishment for the Sinful Witch (p. 122): Change to Pe(Mu)Vi(Ig). Change the effect level description to "…has a level equal to or lower than half this spell's…"

It's there because it was invalid as MuVi in several different respects (non-Hermetic, already existing spell).

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In the ex Misc chapter of HoH:S, the Children of Pralix have an mMF in Exotic Magic and make their own Vim spells against non-Hermetic magics. Though I can't recall if any of the examples were Muto.


The cited uses for said focus were for Intellego, Perdo and Rego.

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I checked that yesterday, it's only Perdo.

So the consensus appears to be that this is "intended" to be a hard prohibition in the guideline.

Do we have a similar consensus that it "should" be a hard prohibition? And/or whether the guideline should be clarified re: appearing to potentially allow for a knowledge/familiarity based exclusion?

It should definitely be a hard prohibition. My experience in other game systems is that metamagics give you a lot more flexibility than you might at first think, and letting magi mess with other magic systems might well give them easy ways around some of the limits of magic.

I'd say the same purely from a point of view of the "flavour" of the game. Bonisagus' approach to magic was very systematic, and existing Muto Vim guidelines work within that system. Working with another system (that might not be all that systematic) sounds like it shouldn't be easy, even with some familiarity.


But Pralicians may cast spontaneous MuVi on exotic magic. By observing for 3 rounds they may add 3x Comprehend Magic to casting totals for Mu, Re, or Pe Vi spells.
This implies it’s possible but that only this not-quite-Hermetic tradition can do it.

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They can use Comprehend Magic on Hermetic magic, too. So this does not in the vaguest imply they can use MuVi on non-Hermetic magic.

Yes, but I don't know how that can be useful for MuVi.

"These spells can only be used on Hermetic magic"
"It is not possible [...] to use Muto Vim to affect another spell after it has been cast."

You inspect a spell for 3 rounds, and if someone try to cast it again... you get some help to PeVi / ReVi it. You can even do it with MuVi it if it's some exotic Hermetic magic. Which seems to means only other Ex Misc exotism. So Pralixians can't Muto (?!).

Vim is a little too meta for me to grok its point. And that's why I want to see some meta-magi character template.

A pralician inspects some other hermetic magus for 3 round with Comprehend Magic.
When that magus next casts a spell, the pralician can cast a MuVi spell on that other spell as it is being cast, and gets a bonus for having studied the caster.
Should work just fine.


We were discussing non-Hermetic magics though.

I never said it wasn't possible, only that run-of-the-mill Hermetics can't do it. It's at the level of needing a Breakthrough of some sort, not just "Oh I spent years amongst these people, I've seen them do a lot of magic."