See above; I let the sample magus have it at Gauntlet.
If you want a +5 bonus, you risk 5 botch dice. Even with the Cautious with AL, this character risks 3 botch dice on a 0. Not pleasant. On the other hand, since this is not magic activity, he at least doesn't Warp.
I hate botch dice, especially for lab activities, so this approach doesn't thrill me. OTOH, a Learned Magician with TuFa can eliminate the possibility of a botch entirely....
You'd think, yes. In fact, the social rules of the Order tend to discourage magi working together, because the mechanical rules of the game offers extravagant rewards tomagi who work together. (The effectiveness of cooperation has been around since before this edition.) There don't need to be any team virtues for this overwhelming benefit to occur.
The social fluff being what it is, a covenant that works together on projects of this kind will be perceived as being led by a single magus, and the others will be treated as lackeys; if the lead magus is a Verditius, they will be treated even worse.
Yeah, this thread has improved my rules-fu. Still need to brush up on Items of Quality and see how you guys get around those botch dice for Planetary/Celestial Magic...
For the botch dice, I think your best bet (other then just risking it. Rolling a zero twice is rare) is a "pet" Natural Magician. He can (if buff enough) turn that zero into a ten. As a side perk, he can max out your living condition modifier to age. Working together, you could both have a -30 or more to aging.
As to Items of Quality, one of the best virtues out there to my mind. If it's a tool (and they give a definition of tool in canon, for the virtue, and it's Broad!) you can spend a season to get the form/material bonus as a NON-Magic bonus to things the bonus would apply to. Some of those bonuses are real nice ( couple of +3 long life in canon.....) and if you can't find the tool or bonus you need, use Vulgar Alchemy to make it!
I thought of this. But once we're gathering resources--and a Learned Magician as pet is rare--why not forgo the astrology entirely, and create enchantments that buff up your lab, per the Covenants rules? A much better use of time than initiating Planetary Magic and a whole lot of support material.
This is very much a Bad Idea, because the effect that maxes out the magus' living conditions is a constant magical effect, which therefore provides a point of Warping every year.
Per the rules, the item needs to be a tool that is associated with the activity. So a sword gets the bonus for using it in combat, but a chirurgeon does not benefit from a bit of amber, nor a torturer from some human bone.
I can't imagine a mage who hasn't "buffed" his lab. But enchantments cost Vis. Thus Celestial magic (which will give you up to twenty extra Vis a year) is very nice. And again, the chance of botch is small (in my eyes). But it's a solution for those worried about it.
That the Learned Magicians ability to increase living condition modifiers is a constant magic effect causing warping, no argument. But once you have access to his ability to turn a zero into a success, why would you care? Final Twilight doesn't happen until you Twilight, and that requires a botch when spellcasting, right? Well worth the price in my eyes (That price includes the time to keep "him" happy. Probably a season a year, like an apprentice).
True, but the definition for tool (for use in the Virtue) is very open. The Virtue also states F/M, not just Form. So a crown is a tool, and you can therefor make a Quality Crown of Gold, giving +2 to long life (if I remember correctly). That's canon, but I can certainly see a troupe "correcting" that. Thus my mention of Vulgar Alchemy. Want a bonus to living conditions with no Warping? Research a +5 F/M bonus to bleeding bowls and make a "bleeding bowl of Quality"! It's no stretch (as opposed to the "Quality Crown of Gold"), there are plenty of F/M bonuses to health and long life. You just need to figure out which tools would be involved in that activity and incorporate them. It's really the only use for Vulgar Alchemy I see, because the F/M chart is so large that you can always (in my experience) find enough bonuses to peg your Magic Theory.
Sure. To go this route, however, requires a large investment of xps and virtues. A magus can do other things with the time and effort this represents. It also really sucks to roll 5 botch dice, or even 3 if Cautious with AL is taken. The season that will botch, losing vis and time--and an SG is likely to impose additional effects on a double botch--is the season you can't afford to lose.
Reread the rules. TuFa does not work on spellcasting. No spellcasting. No supernatural abilities.
A crown is not a tool used to grant long life. This does not work. (Though it is something used to impress people with authority.)
This is certainly within the rules and even reasonable! You might want to read the rules for Vulgar Alchemy, though, because it takes a lot of time and potential experimentation botches to achieve this kind of bonus.
Except when the SG isn't very keen at giving coverage at the built-in Dark Secret Flaw angle in the chronicle, is sympathetic to the Diedne, thinks only the Tremere are really going to care, if any, about suspected Diedne lineages, or is willing to use the Cailleach Magic version of the Virtue, with its much safer Gruagach lineage and built-in Hedge Magic flaw. Diedne Magic is otherwise very good for a generalist or spontaneous specialist character concept and totally kicks ass in an initiation combo with LLSM or Chthonic Magic.
The trick is, the Virtue does not say the bonus has to be connected to the "job the tool does". The sequence goes, find tool, select bonus, any bonus connected to the item. As written, it's quite open and a little fuzzy. "Bonus to the user's roll when used and an appropriate manner". What is appropriate? Using the tool as it is meant to be used or the power as it is meant to be used? The following sentence "This bonus is equal to the bonus derived from the Shape and Material Bonuses chart, and may be added to any simple or stress die roll in which that power would be useful." seems to imply the latter, but not clearly.
I'm not seeing the huge investment of xps and virtues. My AL was 4 coming out the gate. It's darn useful in Ars Magica. So, in my eyes, that's a sunk cost. Item of Quality is so useful (in my eyes) that I'm going to have it, or know and pay off someone who does. Sunk cost. So the only thing I'm going to do differently is that season to learn Celestial magic.
As to the lost season, I would expect that to happen (WAG) every six years. I would spend a season to get a Hundred Vis. Depends on the game you are playing.
Spellcasting no, roll to avoid Twilight, by canon, yes. Rolling to avoid Twilight is not a spellcasting roll or a Supernatural ability. Sorry, should have been more clear, but this was discussed on another tread, and I got sloppy.
As to Vulgar Alchemy, the first "Item of Quality bonus" I would research is one that would help with Vulgar Alchemy. How about you?
What part of "First, select a tool or item that would be appropriately used by a professional in his trade," did I miss?
It's not just select a tool.
C'mon.
No, it's not. I complain about ambiguous writing, but this ain't it.
Oy veh. Please.
You're not just grasping at straws, but straws that are burning.
C'mon.
Yes, but you also gave the astrolabe a +7 bonus, when it is actually +5.
What part of "or Twilight-related botch dice" did I miss?
That's a good idea. This still doesn't prevent experimentation nastiness, or the many seasons it takes to generalize a single bonus, but at least bigger bonuses become possible.
While geeking Vulgar Alchemy, I came across a line in the flavor text I had previously skimmed over. "Verditius magi have a similar (more powerful) ability, when they use Verditius Runes to add their Philosophiae to standard Shape and Material Bonuses. (Vulgar Alchemy experimentation is not compatible with Verditius Runes.)". Man, any Verditius who can't use that to max his "story factor" should be drummed out of the House! Wow!
The part where the roll to resist Twilight and the roll to Comprehend Twilight are two different rolls. the roll to resist Twilight does not have "Twilight related botch dice", in canon, where the "botch dice" are listed in the section to Comprehend Twilight. I got schooled on this because I thought Enigmatic Wisdom reduced time in Twilight. So it goes.
I don't think so. I listed the text where it talked about it, and that text made reference to "power", not "tool", when it came to use. Again, I would not argue against house ruling this Virtue, which I think is wonderful. I do think it's a little funny that people on this board were, just days ago, talking about how useless this Virtue was....
Yes, memory is a mocker. But I still expect any mage worth his salt to have a AL of four or five out the box. Need to read Greek, Latin, and Native tongue, at least.... So +4 as a starting mage, as opposed to a +5. Either way, well worth the Vis.
I am here to waste time. I spend too much time in my head as it is. I don't think it's clear, perhaps because the time it came up "in game", that's how the ST read and ran it. So while I can see your point, and would in fact house rule accordingly, four guys read the canon and went the other way.
As to "Twilight Related Botch Dice", I would agree with you, except for line in comprehending Twilight, which gives us a separate line, in bold, for botch dice. It seems to me to be a special case. I asked in the thread where you schooled me what "Twilight Related Botch Dice" meant, and no one, as I remember, gave a black and white answer, but the general consensus seemed to be that "Twilight Related Botch dice" meant the Comprehension roll. Certainly not a clear as it could be, but then, the whole Twilight section is weird, though I love the whole Idea. Still think that Enigmatic Wisdom is really nerfed by the fact it doesn't reduce time in Twilight.
Ovarwa, reading back on your posts, I think I see the confusion. Your examples were correct, but not what I was (poorly) trying to get at. Tool, as defined by the Virtue, is not just something you use actively (like a sword or broom), but also something passive (like a courtier's refined clothing, or a King's scepter). That is where it gets fuzzy. A helmet is used by a soldier in his work. Clear. The Shape and Material Bonuses for a helmet are +4 effect wearer's mind and emotion, or +6 effect wearer's sight. Neither of which involve protecting the wearer's noggin, which is what I think we agree a helmet is "used" for. Then there's the example given in the Virtue of a King's specter being a tool. That's clear. But a scepter does not have a form bonus. So using that example implies that you have a Material bonus, or it shouldn't have been used as an example. So that's unclear.
So it seems to me that the Virtue should have stated "Shape" bonus, as opposed to "Shape and Material" bonus, and a clearer definition of how it's being used (I believe that would be the bonus, as with a helmet giving +6 affecting the wearer's sight, or a glove giving +4 to affect things by touch).
Sorry again for being unclear, and thank you for responding to my prattling.
Well... suppose I have a sword. As a mundane tool it is used to fight. A Verditius can then bring out the sword's quality of damage. Well and good and straightforward. But he could instead bring out the quality of the sword's iron, to get a larger bonus for specifically harming faeries, since that's also within the normal purview of a sword. Or if he embedded a piece of coral in the hilt, he can make a sword of demon-slaying, that provides a massive +10 bonus... but only against demons, and only when using the sword as a sword.
So S&M bonuses both apply.
Include silver a +6 (iirc) sword of lycanthrope slayage...
Right, we are in perfect agreement there. The fuzzy part comes (in my reading) when dealing with the "passive" items. Is a crown a tool? Yes. How do you use a Crown? By wearing it. So can I make a Crown of Human Bone of Quality to destroy all in my path? I would say no, that's not what a crown "does" in venue. Crown of Alabaster of Quality for the wisdom bonus? That sounds like what a crown would do. So, you know, check with your troupe to make sure that S&M bonus is appropriate. That's what I was trying to say, and I think we are on the same page now. Thanks again and now to bed.....
In fact, the social rules of the Order tend to discourage magi working together, because the mechanical rules of the game offers extravagant rewards tomagi who work together. (The effectiveness of cooperation has been around since before this edition.) There don't need to be any team virtues for this overwhelming benefit to occur.