If a spell uses Concentration duration, can the magus maintain the spell even after the target moves out of the range of the spell?
The specific example in question: A player has a spell that is a Sight range version of "Opening the Intangible Tunnel," which he's cast on a magically-animated construct. Can he still cast spells through the construct after it has moved out of his Sight?
His argument is that you can cast Touch range Sun duration spells on targets and the spells continue even after you're no longer touching them, but to me, that's because the Sun duration spell doesn't have to be maintained. You have to perceive an object to affect it with magic, so it seems to me that maintaining concentration on a target that has moved away too far for you to perceive any longer, breaks the limit of Arcane Connections.
Per the RAW, I think he is in the clear. Range is important only at the time of casting, not later on. So if the construct is teleported to Mongolia he would still be able to use the intangible tunnel for the Duration. You can rule against it, but it is in the rules. Unless the description of the intangible tunnel says otherwise (noble's parma since I am preparing dinner)
Intangible Tunnel's description doesn't have anything of the sort, because in the RAW it's an Arcane Connection range spell, and a target can never move out of AC range.
I would expect, though, that if you were concentrating on an AC-range spell, and then that Arcane Connection were destroyed, the spell would end, even if you made your concentration roll, which is consistent with my interpretation. "Hermetic Magic cannot affect an unsensed target without an Arcane Connection[/b]" (emphasis mine).
Concentration duration certainly falls under "continuing effect". But "control the effect" is a bit more fuzzy in this case.
That is, to me, certainly a valid interpretation. Opening the Intangible Tunnel does not create an arcane connection to the target -- it simply allows a spell to be cast through the tunnel to extend the range to that of the Tunnel.
On the other hand, some might argue that having an active spell on the target means you can sense him. But I'd say that actively sensing the target is much like "control the effect" above, so you could not cast a spell through the Tunnel if you are out of range of said Tunnel.
Allowing extension of the range of a Tunnel just because the effect is continuing can easily lead to abuse. A Touch-range, Month-long Tunnel spell would basically allow you to Touch-range cast spells at any of your grogs no matter where they are, throughout the month, without even needing an arcane connection. Teleport them to you, see where they are, read their mind or look through their senses, etc. All done quickly, using relatively low-level spells, because you cast a long-lasting Tunnel effect on them before they left.
There is no control with an Intangible Tunnel, though, it just exists. In the case of a Concentration spell it exists so long as concentration is maintained.
Depends on how you define control. Pushing a magical effect through the tunnel certainly sounds like it could qualify to me. The tunnel is directing the spell to the target -- how do you cast it through if you do not "control" the tunnel?
I know that the description of Opening the Intangible Tunnel does not speficy how the magic is directed through it at the target, nor does it call for "control" of the tunnel. But it does call for concentration on the tunnel to be able to cast through it.
But it would seem to make sense that you can only cast spells through the tunnel when the target is within range of the tunnel. Moving out of range does not break the tunnel, but would make it dormant and unusuable until the target moves back into range again.
I agree with Ryu when he mentioned that if the caster of the traditionnal, Arc-range Opening the Intangible Tunnel was to see the arcane connection destroyed, he wouldn't be able to keep the tunnel open. In that case the arcane connection establishes "control" of the tunnel to allow casting through it. On a Sight-ranged tunnel, the target moving out of range means the caster cannot "control" the tunnel to cast a spell through it.
It may sound like a convoluted definition of "control", but not such a stretch. The alternative is to allow such abuses as I mentioned in my previous comment.
Well, I'm convinced that the sight-range Intangible Tunnel remains active while the animated construct is out of the caster's sight, but I'm not convinced that he can cast spells on the construct through the tunnel until it returns to Sight range. Without an Arcane Connection, Hermetic magic cannot affect a target that cannot be perceived by the caster; that's why Intangible Tunnel was designed as an Arcane Connection spell.
Oh, another thing to keep in mind is that Opening the Intangible Tunnel is a legacy spell. Looking at the 3rd and 4th edition rules, there was no such mention of what happened when the target moved out of range, and that "control" was only possible while the target was in range. Modification of a spell's parameters was also less common then.
So I would suggest that perhaps such considerations were not fully appreciated when the spell was translated to the 5th edition guidelines, and that the text was not reviewed with this in mind.
Personally I'd point out one thing that would probably prevent anyone doing that:
It's a continuous effect, on both the target and the caster.
(so, if you use it on 10 grogs, congrats on your free warping point )
I can see people using it under circumstances that they feel warrant it, but it's not longer a nice, pleasant, fire-and-forget thing to do.
EDIT: Oh, and of course if an enemy gets hold of one of those grogs, they can cast voice-range effects on the maga. The maga can't cast anything back; the spell doesn't transmit their voice or their vision. That's not a healthy thing to be handing to your enemies.
I agree that it's a continuous effect on the grog -- he's the target. Some magi will be careful not to warp their grogs, others won't care. I disagree that it is a continuous effect on the caster.
In any case, it only inflicts warping if the effect is active at least half the year. If you only use it when the grogs are going away on a mission, you probably won't reach that treshold.
Incorrect. The spell does not create an arcane connection. The only ones who can use the tunnel to cast spell through it are the caster and the target. And the target needs to "magically recognize the tunnel", so if cast on a grog there is no risk.
The range to the target is the range at casting. Afterwards, the spell runs its course for the entire duration.
Doing otherwise would mean, for example, that if you use an "Eye of the Gorgon" spell to change someone in stone for Moon duration at Eye range, once you stop looking at him, he returns to flesh (See also Curse of Circe).
Likewise, if you cast an Eye range “hold motionless” spell ReCo spell on someone, you don’t need to look him in the eye for him to stay motionless, just to concentrate.
This is not unlike casting a Touch range Concentration spell on yourself: You need to lower your parma, but afterwards, the spell is still active, even though it can no longer penetrate.
That spell exists, in Hermetic Projects.
Yet, I don't see the problem. It requires you, before your grogs go out, to touch each of them.
How is that any more difficult than taking an AC to each of them before they go, casting a standard tunnel afterwards at your leisure? Note also that such a spell is also be muuuuuch less useful for Wizard's War than a standard tunnel.
The aforementionned Hermetic Project spell says otherwise.
So, if a Moon duration Intangible Tunnel cast at touch range counts as a "continuing effect" and allows you to cast spells through through it (RAW: Check), does a Concentration duration Tunnel cast at touch/voice/sight range also counts as “countinuous effect” etc?
IMO, there’s no reason to think otherwise.
It's a continuous magical effect which is firmly attached to the caster, moving with him at all times. If that's not a continuous effect on the caster, I don't know what is.
It's continuous (it lasts a month); it's magical (it's a blooming Vim effect); it's on the caster (it is firmly attached to him and moves with him).
IMS, at least, 10 month long effects= 1 10 month effect for the purpose of warping.
Otherwise you could cast a spell with moon duration every month for a year, and never get warped because it's 10 different effects.
From the description of the spell
"A magus who magically recognizes the tunnel (through The Invisible Eye Revealed or a similar spell) may cast spells through the tunnel back at you, and he need not concentrate on keeping the tunnel open. If this magus is the target of the spell, he is considered to be touching you. Otherwise, his effective range to you is his range to the target of the tunneling spell."
So, no, it's not perfectly safe, it DOES create an arcane link.
I don't have Hermetic Project, but to me that sounds like a good example of "slippery slope" in action.
Mecanistic magic, with rules that are stretched and strechted some more until it doesn't feel like magic anymore. But it seems like it's RAW.
I totally agree with this. I was simply saying that if the grog spends most of his time at the covenant, where he does not need such continuous effects, then warping is no longer an issue.
Note that I don't consider multiple spells in effect at the same time as stacking when considering time spend under continuous effect. I would assume that you don't either, but it is unclear from your example.
I actually do, but I understand it's less certain from RAW.
My reasoning is: Two continuous effects for a year=two warping points. So multiple effects results in more warping than just one effect.
I don't treat it as purely linear, it's more unpredictable than that (casting 24 momentary spells on yourself per day, every day, for a year, will warp you even though it only adds up to a few hours over the year).
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