Confusion in Order/Mundane Relations

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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Reading Covenants has lead me to yet another noob question that I am having difficulty reconciling in my mind.

Is the Order of Hermes public or secret? Reading that each covenant is supported by a few villages (as per Covenants) demands that the existence of the Order is public knowledge, at least among the nobles, who must be furious over the Order's usurpation of their lands.

If we look to England, for example, all land is the property of the king. Period. If someone owns land and is supported by villages, it is only at the king's sufferance.

Is this a "deliberate bit of vagueness in the rules" again? If so, it's a confusing one (as are most deliberate bits of vagueness to us non-legacy players).

I'm not trying to nitpick or gripe, though I'm certain it must sound that way. It's just that I've recently discovered Ars Magica and fallen head over heels for it. In many ways, it's the game I've always wanted to play. I just want it to be as good as it possibly can and to eliminate vagueness for the sake of those of us crossing over to AM from other, not-as-good, games.

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The Order is public to the extent that some clergy, nobles and other powerful figures know that there is a fraternity of wizards called "the Order of Hermes" or something similar. Their detailed knowledge (such as the division of Houses, organisation based on Covenants, magic using 15 Arts, existence of the Parma Magica, the exact wording of the Oath of Hermes [beyond the "no mundane interference" clause, etc) would be extremely limited.

Beyond that, most denizens of Mythic Europe know that wizards exist, whether those wizards are hedge wizards or members of the Order, or infernalists, or holy wizards or whatever. Any detailed or accurate, specific knowledge would be rare.

This is left vague for a number of reasons; so that troupes can customise, so that future writers aren't straight-jacketed, etc.

Also, the Order is spread over the entirety of Mythic Europe, parts of North Africa and the Holy Land. Thus, its interaction with the mundane varies greatly based on geography and time (ie, at varying times, such as under Charlemagne, mundanes may have known more about the Order).

Basically, there is not one answer. In England, the interaction of the Order will vary depending on the location of the magi, the specifics of the mundanes, the needs and desires of the magi and the covenant, relations between magi and nobles or clergy (ie, in some parts of the Rhine and Hungary, Tremere magi are related to powerful nobles, to whom they are rumoured give covert assistance) etc.

Whether the Order has an "embassy" in the Vatican or the Court of Kind Richard, or an envoy advising the Despot of Epirus, or a magi pretending to be a monk in a bishop's court, all depend on the saga, and other specifics.

For example, a covenant pretending to be a monastery filled with scholars may be reputed by a local village (who provide the covenant with food) to be the home of wizards, but those peasants won't know that the Order exists, or any specifics of Hermetic magic.

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ArM5 p. 15 really details the relations between the Order and society at a level never before seen in any ArM product that I know of. On the issue of nobility, it says

This seems to imply the existence of the Order is fairly well known, at least amongst the nobility and clergy (which are the ones that count).

In this issue I prefer the vagueness. I consider both games where the magi operate openly and ones in which they operate covertly as viable, and think both versions should be supported by cannon. As it is, it seems the existence of the Order, even of the magi's unwillingless to swear fealty, is well known and an accepted part of Mythic Europe. It makes sense, but I just think the option for a secretive order shoudl have been maintained from prior editions.

Yair

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...Also...

Even if the 'Mundane Folk' know about it...they are more than likely wary of what could happen to them should they accost the 'fellas on the hill'. This is of course a reserved opinion. They will be those that HAVE to make everyone submit, and there are those that would be terrified at the thought of being turned into a frog...Even a king would be a little wary of bothering such folk....as long as they stay there...

IMO
:unamused:

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In the milieu I am designing, it is a little of both.

Peasants usually know about wizards, magic, faeries, etc. Depending on the region they live in, their knowledge may even be vaguely close to the truth (or may be far from it). They all believe in it, though, and many are afraid of it and take comfort in the faith of the Dominion. As a rule, they do not know about the Order of Hermes. Certain exceptional examples might be in the know, but they would be rare. The Redcaps are a well-known organization of couriers that everyone knows better than to offend, deter, delay, or otherwise deal with poorly.

Nobles, like peasants, have heard about wizards, etc., and in Mythic Europe, are also likely to be believe that such things really do exist. Many important and knowledgeable nobles know about the Order of Hermes, especially those in positions of power and those that have a hand in the larger cities, and of course those that hold lands near Covenants or have dealings with fellow nobles who do. Because wizards really do have power, not every noble is automatically willing to charge off into battle against groups of them, regardless of what their personal beliefs in regards to the Dominion are. The simple fact is, assaulting a strong Covenant is far more dangerous than laying siege to a mundane fortification. This means that nobles are frequently willing to come to some sort of arrangement with the wizards, thus staving off a difficult battle that is likely to frighten the noble’s troops to half to death, and that could possibly bring stealthy reprisals later. The Redcaps are a well-known organization of couriers that everyone knows better than to offend, deter, delay, or otherwise deal with poorly. Powerful, important, or well-connected nobles know that the Redcaps are the Order's couriers, but most do not.

The clergy often know about nobles. This is, of course, Mythic Europe, where magi have always existed. This means that to the record-keeping church, they have long been a known quantity. The church even has reliable information about their strengths and weaknesses. They even have a copy of the Oath, and are aware of the Order’s internal rules about demons and diabolism. They also know of the stricture against interfering with mundanes, and are capable of figuring out for themselves that this stricture is paid only lip service. Most priests, save the most ignorant and small-minded living in remote corners of nowhere, are aware of the Order of Hermes (they are also familiar with standard magical "folklore"). Senior members of lay orders are also in the know. Again, in my milieu, church officials tend to go after Covenants and the Order of Hermes only when they feel these organizations are interfering with the beliefs of their flock, or interfering with the church itself. Those priests and lay brothers who know about the order also know about the Redcaps.

I would say it depends both upon the timeframe and upon the fact that this is Mythic Europe, not the RW historical Europe.

In England, prior to 1066, not all land was under what passed for the manorial system. After 1066, the Normans began to impose near-universal use of the manorial system. However, even by 1088, they did not control every last acre of England, much less Wales.

When this is tied into the fact that magi have real powers that are frightening and difficult to understand, then as I mentioned above, many nobles are probably going to be willing to come to some sort of arrangement. Those that won't, well, some stories are going to be interesting, aren't they?

Technically, yes. However, the King can't be everywhere, and the individual nobles are going to be the ones stuck with the actual problem of dealing with covenant dealings.

The most frequent arrangement between Covenants and nobles is the payment of taxes in the form of goods or monies, and rarely, magical services like the provisioning of magical weapons and armor, or longevity potions.

I tend to look upon it as leeway for me to do what I want.

Not to me it doesn't. Please continue.

Vagueness in milieu and metaplot is good. (Vagueness in the rules is not necessarily so good, but I'm a tinkerer, so I that doesn't bother me so much.)

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Vagueness in mileu and metaplot doesn't bother me nearly as much as vagueness in the rules. The bit about branches of the arts, for example, is so vague that it feels a bit like I've paid $30 to be told "make something up." I didn't really need to spend my hard-earned green to do that, now did I? :smiley:

I've just been noticing a disparity as I dig more deeply into the game. The numbers crunch right, but different authors at times seems to be writing for completely different games. This seems especially true where the Code is concerned.

Looking at True Lineages:

The Rituals of Fenicil are a bit of an abomination. For instance, Curse of Thoth, if directed at a Hermetic Magus, would violate the Code under depriving someone of their magical ability. [i]Curse of Mars[/] is surely interfering with mundanes on a massive scale and likely endangering the order. Call for Justice requires no blood sacrifice (which is good), but is the only one of the three that doesn't fly in the face of the Code. The lesser rituals are much better, fortunately, but I run into the problem of having these as a part of the House that exists to defend the Code. That's just phenomenally odd.

I judge a supplement in a couple of ways, the most important of which is this: Does it make me interested in the subject? This is, of course, my own personal taste, and different people will have varying opinions. I'm only stating what works for me.

The new books rules in Covenants, while detailed, add nothing to the game, IMO. I like the Bonisagus stuff quite a bit, but have developed a serious revulsion toward Guernicus thanks to Fenicil. Of course, I would simply drop that portion of the house and it becomes infinitely more palatable.

I'm actually rather fond of Tremere now, which surprised me, as I had no interest in them before, though the whole vampire tie-in from the White Wolf days is both sad and amusing, particularly in Timothy's little jab at them with the favored familiars. But overall, the house has some interesting points and better flavor than presented in the main text.

So just spouting a bit and trying to understand what seem like direct contradictions in flavor and setting. From a noob's standpoint, there seems to be a lot of assumed knowledge in the Ars Magica world, and from most people's posts, I would guess that many of you have been playing it for quite some time and have the advantage of having read previous supplements and rules where information is supplied that seems scant or absent in this edition.

Thanks for listening to me ramble and once again, I love this game and any perceived griping is just me wanting it to be the best game it can be. Frankly, I'd love to see Ars Magica become the dominant game in the RPG world.

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I agree. So would Guernicus magi, I think. I consider the rituals kind of like nuclear weapons - a weapon of, truly, last resort, that even in victory leaves a bitter taste in your mouth.
Regardless of the rituals, didn't you find the description of House Guernicus itself to add some interesting minutea and ideas to your game?

Didn't you find TL to add interesting ideas and rules to your game? I did.
I personally found GotF superb, TL good, and TD so-so. Covenatns I haven't read yet (mail takes forever to reach me), but I actually am expecting it to be very useful - I am particularly interested in the laboratory rules. (I suspect the book rules and accounting rules would be far less valuable to me.)

At any rate I may be here since ArM3, but I'm no real grogdad, nor expert.

Ars Magica is my favorite game, but that isn't going to happen. Unfortunately.

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Of the ones I've seen so far, I've liked most of True Lineages, Covenants is a thoroughly mixed bag full of gems hidden in some midden, the Divine was quite good. Like I say, my overall impression is that this is simply the best system I've gotten to play with that wasn't home-brewed. It's just a few sticking points and inconsistencies that I'm trying to sort out.

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If you stop to think about it, 'Curse of Thoth' is exactly what House Guernicus
would do...They we best friends with Diedne after all. You can assume one of two things:

  1. Their friendship went into the middens (Demon, mundane, magical influence?), and they sought to prove their loyalty to the order...
  2. The spell was a hoax. The spell was cast as show for the Tremere. The Diedne took voluntary exile/hiding. The Order is saved and the world continues.
    As was stated in the book, none of the Senior Diedne were ever found...sounds like a conspiracy to me...
    :wink:
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Now THAT is a spin that I rather like, Urien. I can completely live with that one. I like the rather "and it could happen to you, too, so stay in line" feel to it. I can see them intentionally leaking rumor of it, but since it doesn't actually exist the rumors could never be proven. That's fun, in a corbomite device kinda way.

Thanks, Urien!

:smiley:
B

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IIRC, nowhere in Covenants does it say such a thing. (Of course, I could be misremembering...)

If you are referring to an Agriculture source of income, well, that is only one of many suggested types of source. IMHO the great majority of covenants do not have a significant Agriculture source of income (i.e. are not supported by several villages).

Still, some covenants are supported like this, so the general question is still valid...[/b]

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The rituals of Fencil predate the hermetic oath, they were discoveries of ancient magic not creations of Fencil.

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[color=green]

[quote="Eldragil"]
Vagueness in mileu and metaplot doesn't bother me nearly as much as vagueness in the rules. The bit about branches of the arts, for example, is so vague that it feels a bit like I've paid $30 to be told "make something up." I didn't really need to spend my hard-earned green to do that, now did I? :smiley:

So, to be clear, your preference would have been me telling your player characters that they cannot write the best book on X, because it had already been done? Or that there was no perfect book on X, so the covenent should go for ther perfect book on Y instead?

:stuck_out_tongue:

[color=black]Throughout the rules, if you hunt around hard enough, you are going to get these vauge bits, because frankly there's no advantage for the line, or for individual sagas, of me saying "Fire's in..water's out." You will probably see the writers of the Branches as time goes on, in other books. I have no idea who will write them, or what they will want to say, though. The point of the roots and branches is to cap things...to make books a specialist industry, rather than a cottage industry.

[color=green]I've just been noticing a disparity as I dig more deeply into the game. The numbers crunch right, but different authors at times seems to be writing for completely different games. This seems especially true where the Code is concerned.

Looking at True Lineages:

The Rituals of Fenicil are a bit of an abomination. For instance, Curse of Thoth, if directed at a Hermetic Magus, would violate the Code under depriving someone of their magical ability.

[color=black]Precisely, yes. Prehermetic magic is not part of Hermetic scruples, and its things like this that made the law that they were not permitted necessary. People only make illegal those things they think other people can do.

[color=green][i]Curse of Mars[/] is surely interfering with mundanes on a massive scale and likely endangering the order. Call for Justice requires no blood sacrifice (which is good), but is the only one of the three that doesn't fly in the face of the Code. The lesser rituals are much better, fortunately, but I run into the problem of having these as a part of the House that exists to defend the Code. That's just phenomenally odd.

They don't use them often. They arguably have never used two of them.

[color=green]The new books rules in Covenants, while detailed, add nothing to the game, IMO.

Fair enough: you don't play that way, and th's OK by me. I'm suprised you don't like the rules for wonders, which seem to have broad appeal, but that's OK.

[color=green]I like the Bonisagus stuff quite a bit, but have developed a serious revulsion toward Guernicus thanks to Fenicil. Of course, I would simply drop that portion of the house and it becomes infinitely more palatable.

The point of the Fencil thing is basically that these are the nuclear weapons in the locker of the House. They don't use them regularly. They are, the immorality that the House embraces only when they lack any other option.

[color=green]I'm actually rather fond of Tremere now, which surprised me, as I had no interest in them before, though the whole vampire tie-in from the White Wolf days is both sad and amusing, particularly in Timothy's little jab at them with the favored familiars. But overall, the house has some interesting points and better flavor than presented in the main text.

Jab? There's no jab: there really is an Illyrian colony of white wolves sacred to Mercury, in classical times. :laughing:

[color=olive]So just spouting a bit and trying to understand what seem like direct contradictions in flavor and setting. From a noob's standpoint, there seems to be a lot of assumed knowledge in the Ars Magica world, and from most people's posts, I would guess that many of you have been playing it for quite some time and have the advantage of having read previous supplements and rules where information is supplied that seems scant or absent in this edition.

That's a perfectly fair point, I feel. THere is a very steep curve to assimilate all of the books. So, I wouldn't bother if I was you, to try to be letter perfect. Just slap ideas around and get a saga together.

[color=green]Thanks for listening to me ramble and once again, I love this game and any perceived griping is just me wanting it to be the best game it can be. Frankly, I'd love to see Ars Magica become the dominant game in the RPG world.

Ifd you want to talk through any specific points, most of the authors are around, and are perfectly willing to dialog with you, OK?

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Thank you Eldragil...

We have a Diedne in the Covenant (that makes for nervousness behind the scenes, but nobody KNOWS it yet). The various write ups kind of lend themselves to the following:

Diedne survive (There is the Virtue after all)

The Diedne one is kind of fun. If House Guernicus CAST the spell, You can assume the malicious intent, and they (Diedne) could seek revenge. You can assume altruism (they didn't cast the spell), and they went into hiding to save the order. Either of these provides an interesting story line. I imagine that was the intent of the write ups.
If you assume the first, then any Diedne in a Covenant is there as a spy or some such (dangerous). If you assume the second, they are there keeping an eye on things and helping out. You could also assume they are the survivors apprentices, and are scattered...
If you assume the second, you can assume some assistance from Guernicus...or maybe absorbtion. Remember, the greatest zealots are those with something to hide, or a guilty conscience...
:slight_smile:

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Thanks, Timothy. I know how our gaming group does things, and how our SG (the only one of us who's played before 5th edition) thinks, but I'm trying to delve through the books and figure out what the game has set out as canon. As a noob to the game, there seems to be a lot of "heritage" or "legacy" based assumptions, the sort of things that people new to the game can't find readily.

Having an experienced SG for the game, it's not much of an issue for me, but I'm developing a bit of an evangelist streak with AM (it's just that good). But I worry about new players, as there just seems to be a lot of assumed knowledge and that may scare them away from a game more brilliant than anything Wizards ever put out.

Thanks again,
Brian

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The vaguenesses have never been clear, in any edition. It's one of the reasons that they're vague in ArM5: there are legacy players playing with the whole range of interpretations. Fenicil's rituals are a lot more definite than they were before (that may not be a good thing from your perspective...), and the roots and branches are an ArM5 innovation.

There are a few things that are deliberately vague because you have to pick one of a range of styles, but they all work; canon should not force you into one of them. But on the whole, I don't think much of the information you are looking for was every published. There's never been a Magic realm book, for example. We're just doing such a good job of creating the illusion of an enormously deep world that you think the details must all be worked out somewhere. :wink:

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Canon is for authors, not players. That is, you really shouldn't bother with the great depth of information you seem to be looking for. For most players it doesn't matter, although authors need to look at it so that if you decide to use a particular theme in your game, there are no jarring inconsistencies.

As for Wizards never publishing a game this good: they did own Ars Magica for a while. They sold it off to Atlas to concentrate on their core business, which at that stage was Magic cards. They then bought TSR, which seemed a bit odd to those of us who'd seen them sell Ars Magica.

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Remeber that in the setting the order has existed since 767. Stonehenge tribunal plays a key role in the earliest crisis of the order (the fight against Davnailious and the formation of the order ex miscellainia). If magi have held a plot of land for three hundered years they can hardly be seen as usurpers.

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Interesting food for thought. Thank you one and all.

As for the D&D world, there's actually some very good stuff coming out of Green Ronin that does away with a great deal of D&D's abject silliness. There may be a great game in there yet.

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Just as an aside, are you familiar with their Medieval Player's Manual? It's written by our very own line editor, David Chart.

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