Consumate Talisman query

The mystery of the Consumate Talisman allows you to enchant MuVi effects into the Talisman, that affects spells that the Talisman's holder casts.

Would this work for any mage that holds the Talisman and knows how to activate the MuVi enchantments?

No. The MuVi effects in the Talisman has R: Personal. This means they can target the magus only if it is his talisman - otherwise they would just target the device itself.

I overlooked the Personal range.

...but what would happen if the Talisman also contained Range enhancing MuVi enchantments that targetted the MuVi enchantments that affected the spell casting of the Talisman's holder?
ie turned Personal to Touch range

Why would the talisman owner create such a convoluted setup when he wouldn't benefit from it at all?

MuVi in items can only affect effects in the item and must be created at touch (or greater) range, like most MuVi effects, so in the hands of the creator whether you use touch or personal it does something that usually can’t be done with items but can’t be used at all by someone who is not the talisman creator with a greater talisman if created at personal range. One could also read it as a MuVi effect in a normal item (for this purpose any item that is not a greater talisman) must target a specific effect within the item rather than any effect in the item which would make MuVi effects created in a greater talisman completely useless for anyone else who has the Talisman.

For the Gifted Mercere who is trying to create a legacy item for her bloodline...?


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Not only would it need to penetrate, but it wouldn't be your Talisman.
So it would just be another magical item, bound by the rules indicated by @dc444 above.

I hadn't gotten as far as needing to deal with the Penetration issue. But thanks for reminding me.

However, why does someone else's Talisman stop being a Talisman if, say, my mage had got ahold of it? Whether or not the original mage was still alive.

I am kind of hoping that this may lead to a way, RAW, to make a LotR "Ring of Power". Or something similar.

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A Talisman does not stop being a Talisman just because someone else gets hold of it. But it won't be that person's talisman, and therefore he won't be able to make use of any of the special talisman benefits.

True, a Talisman is effectively an enchanted device, that follows the rules of an enchanted device while also giving assorted advantages to its creator.

Out of the hands of its creator, it should remain an enchanted device.

A Consumate Talisman is a Talisman that modifies one of the limits of enchanted devices (MuVi).
Would it be wrong to presume that the modified enchanted device remains a modified enchanted device when not used as a Talisman? ie the limit on MuVi effects is still "loosened"?
Still requires the Talisman's creator to do all the necessary MuVi instilled effects before someone else can take advantage of it, so there is no immediate benefit for the creating mage. But as suggested it could be intended for a legacy, or some other long term plan. (or perhaps you want to give your apprentice an unfair advantage in the Gauntlet, by loaning a magic item)

The rules are sufficiently vague here that they can be interepreted in either way.
So decide which end result you want, and then choose a rule interpretation that support this.

Personally I'd rule you cannot play funny games with those MuVi effects. It is a Mystery effect, and cannot be used with anything other than Personal range, and thus will only be useful for the creator of the talisman.


Maybe the Verditius Mystery of Item Attunement may be able to approach what you are looking for in some way. Including wielders developing odious habits!

Everything I reread for the 2 Talisman Mysteries just reinforces the notion that most of their benefits are strictly tied to the Talisman’s creator and no other, undergoing Ordeals that bind then even more tightly.

“Such a personal talisman is a direct expression of the magus's individual Gift; an intimate reflection of the magical core of his being.”

So agree with others, no MuVi Talisman effects for non-Talisman creator but wielder’s spells.

I was reading the Consumate Talisman Mystery as a means of changing the rules for enchanting in a limited way that only the Talisman's creator could implement. Resulting in an enchanted device which broke the standard MuVi rule.

I can see how it can be read differently.

As to why a Talisman might be enchanted under my interpretation, I was thinking of why are Casting Tablets made? There is also no immediate benefit to the author.

Talismans are very personal items which are practically never intended to be used by anyone other than the creator, and many of the possible benefits of a talisman cannot be used by anyone but its creator.

This unlike normal enchanted devices which are often made for someone else to use.

Same as writing a book I'd say. The benefit to the author is limited. Arguably even negative (as now others can gain a measure of your own power). So why do magi write books? Perhaps the answer is the same.

Books (and casting tablets and normal enchanted devices) are things you can sell or trade for other books/items you might not be able to create for yourself.
So they can absolutely give the creator a benefit.

Talismans on the other hand are not something you trade or sell or give away.

It depends... I mean, sure, you typically don't give it away while alive. And if you want to make another one, you need to destroy the old one. But as far as I understand, while a talisman attunement is useless to anyone but the magi who attuned to it, Effect Use is still an optional enchantment on talismans, just like it is on another item. Which would mean that a talisman, on the death or final twilight of the magi, would remain a potent magical item in the heir's hands.

Would a Magi hitting Decrepitude 4, or coming back from a decades-long twilight realising the next twilight episode could be the last one, consider spending a season or two preparing his talisman so that an heir could benefit from the accumulated enchantments? I think it's not an impossible scenario, for someone who has a filii they hold dear.

And with the phrasing, "your talisman is considered to be a part of you as long as you are touching it. Personal range spells can affect your talisman", there's at least the basis of an argument for the query made. That being said, I think it's against the spirit of the rules, rather than their strict letter, to allow a R: Per MuVi effect to boost another MuVi effect in the item to help someone else cast their spell. By that logic, the mystery virtue is irrelevant to this conversation, you could technically already enchant a MuVi effect in an enchanted device keyed to affect a previous MuVi effect, in such a way that the existing MuVi effect no longer affects a power of the device, but affects a spell cast by the holder of the device now that this is altered. The virtue has no impact here. And I think that kind of twisted logic is against the spirit of MuVi restrictions in items.

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For normal enchanted devices, any MuVi effects in them can only affect other effects in the item, not spells cast by the user. I do not think there is any way around this by using clever MuVi effects.

"You may only put a Muto Vim effect
into a magical item if it is to work with
another effect in that item."
From the Muto Vim guidelines in the core rulebook.

The Consummate Talisman mystery virtue lets you get around this in limited ways with R:Per MuVi effects, but R:Per effects in a talisman can only work on the talisman and the on the creator of the talisman..

I agree with you that you shouldn't be able to get arround this by using a clever MuVi enchanted effect, with or without the mystery virtue.

My inner munchkin always wants to push the limits of the written rules.

I agree that even under generous interpretation of the rules, this is a highly improbable situation to occur. Just wondering if it was impossible.

Thanks for the various viewpoints and thoughts.

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