Covenant Charter

Oh, sorry. That's in the sample covenant charter from Covenants that I was working with as a baseline.

If you're a Full Member, being censured drops you back to being a Probationary Member.
If you're a Probationary Member, being censured drops you back to being a Protected Guest.

I figured I'd give this a bump too.

Are people not keen on the idea of covenant shards and tokens? It was just an idea that was floated. We could easily drop it with no trouble if people would prefer that.

I am undecided on the idea. In some ways it seems to be almost too formal a structure. On the other hand, it nicely mirrors the environment, and it ought to work reasonably. So I can live with whatever others choose.

I agree. It definitely adds flavor. But it also adds complexity, which balances it out.

I like it because it makes it easy to define the work that new magi and existing magi have to perform in support of the covenant, and it allows for a free trade of them for whatever reasons the magi like. You don't want to perform your two seasons of service to the covenant? Find a magus who's willing to take your shards in trade for something else. Or go and do something else awesome for the covenant that'll warrant you getting a token.

That having been said, I can also see the draw of having things he simpler.

I'm the one who proposed the covenant token/shard idea, so I'm biaised. :wink:

I think it reflects the tone of the tribunal. Not much more complicated than putting a set number of covenant services per period into the charter (which you also have to keep track of). It simply formalizes the "covenant services" aspect of being a member in good standing.

I also suspect that not all magi will get involved in Tribunal politics, at the very least not right away, so it gives all a chance to become familiar on how the tokens and shards work.

Just to try and keep things moving forward, I wanted to provide a list of things that I believe need addressing WRT the charter:

  1. Do we want to have a non-Gifted member on the Council of Members?
  2. Do we agree to Charmion's request that she be granted a veto in the Council of Members for any vote pertaining to the spring?
  3. Do we want to have a censure vote require a 2/3 majority or a simple majority?
  4. Do we want to have any kind of punishment short of censure and expulsion (both pretty severe)?
  5. Do we want to use a system of covenant shards and covenant tokens or not?
  6. What amount of service, if any, do we want to require of our Full Members?
  7. Do we want to have it in our charter that we maintain a guest lab, or do we want to handle that question on the fly?
  8. Are we happy with three tiers of people at the covenant (Protected Guests, Probationary Members, and Full Members)?

It seems to me that if we can agree on these issues in general, getting the exact language should be relatively straightforward.

Now, this list is not meant to be exhaustive. If I've forgotten something, please speak up. These are just the issues that seemed burning to me.

My answers to the proposed (and useful) quesitons:

Do we want to have a non-Gifted member on the Council of Members?
Yes, but not many.

Do we agree to Charmion's request that she be granted a veto in the Council of Members for any vote pertaining to the spring?
Yes.

Do we want to have a censure vote require a 2/3 majority or a simple majority?
2/3 please.

Do we want to have any kind of punishment short of censure and expulsion (both pretty severe)?
It would seem good to have this. Might the Shard mechanism help?

Do we want to use a system of covenant shards and covenant tokens or not?
Net: I think so, but not a strong preference either way.

What amount of service, if any, do we want to require of our Full Members?
Whatever others and precedent thinks is fair.

Do we want to have it in our charter that we maintain a guest lab, or do we want to handle that question on the fly?
I don't think that should be a cherter item, although I do like the idea.

Are we happy with three tiers of people at the covenant (Protected Guests, Probationary Members, and Full Members)?
That sounds reasoanble, except that I can not tell where covenfolk fall. They are not guests.

Thanks.

  1. Do we want to have a non-Gifted member on the Council of Members?
    Want? Not really. Should we have a few? It would make sense. (Not that magi always take the most sensible course of action...)

Note that having a seat on the Council does not automatically mean having a vote. :laughing:

  1. Do we agree to Charmion's request that she be granted a veto in the Council of Members for any vote pertaining to the spring?
    I doubt we will take any decision that relates to the spring, so it is really moot. Sure, give it to her. But otherwise give her the same status as a mundane with a seat on the Council.

  2. Do we want to have a censure vote require a 2/3 majority or a simple majority?
    Don't mind either way. But is it 2/3 of the votes being cast at a given council, or 2/3 of the magi of the covenant? In my experience, most votes requiring more than half (and even many of those) fail because of abstentions. Perhaps we should make it clear that abstentions are not allowed?

  3. Do we want to have any kind of punishment short of censure and expulsion (both pretty severe)?
    Shards.

  4. Do we want to use a system of covenant shards and covenant tokens or not?
    Yes.

  5. What amount of service, if any, do we want to require of our Full Members?
    At least 2 seasons per 7-year period. I would go as high as 4 seasons per 7 years.

  6. Do we want to have it in our charter that we maintain a guest lab, or do we want to handle that question on the fly?
    No need to have it in the charter, although it is a good idea to have at least 1 guest lab. Perhaps even 2 or 3 of them.

  7. Are we happy with three tiers of people at the covenant (Protected Guests, Probationary Members, and Full Members)?
    One thing I wonder is whether distinguishing between Probationary and Full members might be seen as undemocratic in Thebes. Perhaps, by simply using the covenant tokens/shards system, we may avoid having to distinguish between the 2? If we say that a magus is given a certain number of shards upon joining the covenant, that may take care of that -- they simply have a higher obligation to prove themselves through services to the covenant.

Additional items:

  • We talked about giving each magus a fixed amount of silver, to take care of the upkeep for their lab (or whatever other uses they have for it). Essentially a silver salary.
  • Do we want consequences for magi who do not show up for council meetings?
  • How do we assign non-seasonal tasks, such as gathering vis sources?
  • Do we want some provisions to make covenant obligations lighter for members who are selected arche of the Tribunal? They'll already have duties to perform for the Tribunal, so these may also count as covenant service.
  • Do we want specific titles and responsibilities? For example, tamias (treasurer) for vis and/or silver, archon for the leader of the council, etc. Some of these may be determined randomly (treasurer), others by vote (archon). This would (much like tokens and shards) reflect the structure of the Tribunal.

Finally, considering that the name selected for the covenant means "madman's tower" perhaps it would be better if the school was known by a different name. I was thinking "Vodias Shool for Gifted Children", but that wouldn't really be accurate. Just "Vodias School" will have to do, I guess. :laughing:

Do we want to have a non-Gifted member on the Council of Members
Yes.

Do we agree to Charmion's request that she be granted a veto in the Council of Members for any vote pertaining to the spring?
This was my idea so I won't have an opinion.

Do we want to have a censure vote require a 2/3 majority or a simple majority?
2/3 majority.

Do we want to have any kind of punishment short of censure and expulsion (both pretty severe)?
Yes - if we use the shard system then that could be used, otherwise we should think of something else. Even a formal warning, entered into the record, with no other effects, would serve to warn a magus that they're on the way to being censured if they don't change their ways.

Do we want to use a system of covenant shards and covenant tokens or not?
I'd prefer not, as it feels like too much complexity, but if the majority of the group wants it then I'm not too bothered. If we don't have it in the charter to start with, the council could vote to add it to the charter later if they feel it's needed. It feels like a lot of bureaucracy which a long-established covenant might have, but a group of magi starting their own covenant probably wouldn't have to start off with.

What amount of service, if any, do we want to require of our Full Members?
I don't know how to judge this. Two or four seasons per seven-year period sound reasonable.

Do we want to have it in our charter that we maintain a guest lab, or do we want to handle that question on the fly?
I'd handle that question on the fly - a guest lab might be a good idea, but we could do it without it being in the charter. Again this is something we could add to the charter later.

Are we happy with three tiers of people at the covenant (Protected Guests, Probationary Members, and Full Members)?
I'm happy with these three tiers. I'm guessing that theses levels apply to magi, i.e. a Protected Guest is specifically a magus who is staying at the covenant but isn't a member, and mundanes aren't in this system?

If the player character magi are founding the covenant together, I assume they'd all start as Full Members - so Probationary Member is mostly there as a level for them to be knocked down to if they are censured.

Here are my answer, BTW.

  1. Do we want to have a non-Gifted member on the Council of Members?

My original question was about whether we should have a non-Gifted voting member. I think that as annoying as it may be, it might be worth the Loyalty boost that would give.

  1. Do we agree to Charmion's request that she be granted a veto in the Council of Members for any vote pertaining to the spring?

I agree with Arthur, give her the veto and otherwise a non-voting seat on the Council.

  1. Do we want to have a censure vote require a 2/3 majority or a simple majority?

I vote for 2/3. But we can make it 2/3 of members present, not total members. Does the accused get a vote? At these low numbers of members that makes a difference.

  1. Do we want to have any kind of punishment short of censure and expulsion (both pretty severe)?

I agree that Shards would be a good lesser punishment.

  1. Do we want to use a system of covenant shards and covenant tokens or not?

Yes.

  1. What amount of service, if any, do we want to require of our Full Members?

I'm good with between 2-4 seasons every seven years.

  1. Do we want to have it in our charter that we maintain a guest lab, or do we want to handle that question on the fly?

I agree, this doesn't need to be in the charter.

  1. Are we happy with three tiers of people at the covenant (Protected Guests, Probationary Members, and Full Members)?

I'm good with the three tiers. These come, BTW, from the Guernicus-approved charter in the back of Covenants.

  1. Do we have a mundane (silver) magus salary?

I say yes.

  1. Do we want consequences for magi who do not show up for council meetings?

To me, it depends on how often we have Council meetings. But it seems reasonable that a magus should make it to a Council meeting at least once a year (unless excused by the Council.)

  1. How do we assign non-seasonal tasks, such as gathering vis sources?

That's a good question. Assuming volunteering doesn't work, I can see three options: rotation, assignment by the leader, or vote.

Do we want some provisions to make covenant obligations lighter for members who are selected arche of the Tribunal?

We could say that serving as an arche could be worth a covenant token.

  1. Do we want specific titles and responsibilities? For example, tamias (treasurer) for vis and/or silver, archon for the leader of the council, etc. Some of these may be determined randomly (treasurer), others by vote (archon). This would (much like tokens and shards) reflect the structure of the Tribunal.

I like the idea of having flavorful titles. And "archon" is so much better than "disceptator," which is the name given in the sample charter.

Also, FWIW, the sample charter has the leadership position rotate through the members.

  1. Do we want to have a non-Gifted member on the Council of Members?

Id be fine with one, or two at the most.

  1. Do we agree to Charmion's request that she be granted a veto in the Council of Members for any vote pertaining to the spring?

I agree with Arthur, give her the veto and otherwise a non-voting seat on the Council.

  1. Do we want to have a censure vote require a 2/3 majority or a simple majority?

Ive no real opinion on either

  1. Do we want to have any kind of punishment short of censure and expulsion (both pretty severe)?

Nope i think reputation being diminished enough.

  1. Do we want to use a system of covenant shards and covenant tokens or not?

No

  1. What amount of service, if any, do we want to require of our Full Members?

I'm good with between 2 seasons every seven years.

  1. Do we want to have it in our charter that we maintain a guest lab, or do we want to handle that question on the fly?

Unneeded.

  1. Are we happy with three tiers of people at the covenant (Protected Guests, Probationary Members, and Full Members)?

Looks good to me

  1. Do we have a mundane (silver) magus salary?

I say yes.

  1. Do we want consequences for magi who do not show up for council meetings?

Shame and poor rep.

  1. How do we assign non-seasonal tasks, such as gathering vis sources?

Volunteerism, apprentices?

Do we want some provisions to make covenant obligations lighter for members who are selected arche of the Tribunal?

They are already getting paid in tokens but, however count it as their seasons of service for the 7 year period.

  1. Do we want to have a non-Gifted member on the Council of Members?

I'd be cool with this. Help with Loyalty and all that.

  1. Do we agree to Charmion's request that she be granted a veto in the Council of Members for any vote pertaining to the spring?

Totally fine with this.

  1. Do we want to have a censure vote require a 2/3 majority or a simple majority?

Former works.

  1. Do we want to have any kind of punishment short of censure and expulsion (both pretty severe)?

Unless something else comes up, these sound fine.

  1. Do we want to use a system of covenant shards and covenant tokens or not?

This seems a bit complex honestly.

  1. What amount of service, if any, do we want to require of our Full Members?

2 seasons every seven years.

  1. Do we want to have it in our charter that we maintain a guest lab, or do we want to handle that question on the fly?

Doesn't need to be in the charter.

  1. Are we happy with three tiers of people at the covenant (Protected Guests, Probationary Members, and Full Members)?

Works

  1. Do we have a mundane (silver) magus salary?

Yup

  1. Do we want consequences for magi who do not show up for council meetings?

Whatever works for me. I don't see Agapitus ever not showing up.

  1. How do we assign non-seasonal tasks, such as gathering vis sources?

Not sure, depends on how the Vis Sources work I guess.

  1. Do we want some provisions to make covenant obligations lighter for members who are selected arche of the Tribunal?

Probably

So here's what I'm getting as a general consensus:

  1. We should have one non-Gifted member on the Council of Members
  2. Charmion should get her veto on matters pertaining to the spring, but otherwise get a non-voting seat on the CoM,
  3. Censure votes should be a 2/3 majority vote.
  4. No extra punishments, unless we use tokens/shards
  5. Uncertain as to whether we want tokens/shards
  6. 2 seasons of service every seven years
  7. No guest lab in the charter, though we should probably have one
  8. Three tiers of people is good.
  9. Yes, the magi should have a silver salary
  10. No consequences for not showing up to meetings, unless we have tokens/shards.
  11. No formal requirements for the magi to help gathering vis. We will rely on the desire to have vis as giving us enough volunteers.
  12. Serving a term as arche should count as one season of service.

The only thing that still seems to be hazy is the question of tokens/shards. If I have the votes tallied right, we have three in favor, and three against. However, unless we get another vote, it seems that the slight preference is against having tokens/shards at this time. We have three solid no votes, two solid yes votes, and one yes-but-I-have-no-strong-feelings vote. So I think the best option for now is to omit the passage on tokens/shards from the initial covenant, but leave open the possibility that we might add it at a future date.

Please let me know if any of you feel that any of the answers above don't reflect the group consensus.

Interesting, I was reading the answers as 2 solid yes, 1 soft yes, 2 solid no and 1 soft no.

Although some may see the token/shard system as more complex, I rather thought them as a way to simplify things. They would provide something tangible with which to reward/censure members for good/bad behaviour.

Doesn't matter, though. In the end, the obligations to the covenant will be the same.

Hmm, that may well be the case. I was trying very hard to be fair since I was once of the 'yes' votes.

Do either of the soft votes want to clarify their positions?

I'd be happy to see the matter shift more toward yes. :slight_smile:

Kareruren technically has two votes- once for her magus and once for her Mercere companion, though generally the Mercere is expected to abstain, I think in the case of a tie it is worth considering. I have no vote because I don't have a character on the council.

I thought we were discussing this as players of the saga...

if you want my merceres vote its...i already do enough running around as it is. chuckles But yeah i wasnt voting for him on that reason of being a redcap and being a relatively polite sort that doesn't rock the voting.

My view though as the magus is we already have tribunal wide system for shard/token, does it really need to exist in a microcosm, just to get us off our asses to work.

It doesn't need to exist within the covenant. It's just a symbolic way to represent the magi's obligations to the covenant as well as rewards due to the magus for additional services rendered. It's simply a different "currency" than what is usually the case in covenants of different Tribunals, where raw vis is the usual reward.

It also seemed like a good way for us, as players, to get used to how the dynamic of tokens/shards plays out without having to get involved in Tribunal stuff.

Let's put the notion aside and move on. We can always bring it back if people think it might work after all, without adding complexity.

the charter is written by the founding magi. We can be discussing it as players, but it's really a grey area since the characters would also be the ones who are actually writing the charter and voting on it. We don't need line by line character dialogue, but what they would do is certainly part of what shapes the document.