Covenant Design Discussion

I think you are doing some rule-splicing here that really isn't applicable. I'm new at this, so if I mess this up let me know, but the way I see things...

30 XP per year post-gauntlet is RAW, and how characters are supposed to be designed unless you have house rules in place. Now, the rules also state that Magi must provide at least 2 seasons of service every year, which means they are already providing that service post-gauntlet; the amount of XP they get per year should already take into account the loss of these seasons. People with the Wealthy Virtue cut this requirement down to 1 season per year, but if Magi take this Virtue they don't get additional XP per year post-gauntlet; they still only get 30 XP per RAW.

Now, you bring up the use of books and gaining 11-13 XP per season at the low end. And studying a book takes...a single season, if not more. So if you have to already provide 2 seasons worth of service and study a book for the other 2, you are only gaining 26 XP instead of 30; you are gaining LESS XP studying a book for 2 seasons than if you just went RAW post-gauntlet. Obviously, if you have the Wealthy Virtue you gain 39 XP per year because you would have that extra season to study.

I will grant you that there are Virtues that provide bonuses to studying and you gain additional XP from doing so. You can study from raw Vis which gives you boosts to XP from studying as well. And again, you are forgoing the RAW XP granted per year to study from something. And while characters should have the option to either take the RAW XP or study (at SG's discretion), I doubt you'd get both the 30 XP per RAW AND the amount from studying; it should only be one or the other.

Unless I'm misinterpreting your post?

Where do you see that magi have to provide 2 seasons per year of service in the RAW? Magi cannot take wealthy or poor, but also, as I have read things, do not have the two season work obligation. p.163

I think the confusion may come from the following passage in ArM5:

The first paragraph notes that 'normal' characters must work two seasons. However, my understanding is that 'normal' characters include companions and grogs, not magi.

This interpretation is supported by the next paragraph, which states that Hermetic magi always have four seasons free each year.

ETA: you beat me to the quote, silveroak. :wink:

And I stand corrected. Magi do not have to provide seasons of work to a Covenant. Seems odd that they would be exempt from doing that, but oh well.

So, going by RAW it's 30 XP per year post-gauntlet. Even if you do away with that and let someone study from books, it sounds like 52 XP per year (from what silveroak posted), which is still well below what Trogdor's character apparently got (per the posting from Arthur). Which I guess is fine, unless you take into account that silveroak also posted that progression in this game would be as normal rules.

I don't really care either way. If it's a power game or high power game, someone just say so. If not, let's say that, correct what needs correcting, and move on.

Well, whether or not they have to provide seasons, would probably depend on the covenant, its structure, and hierarchy I assume. It's just that for a Magi, it's not assumed that they have to work 2 seasons a year.

While discussion of advancement continues elsewhere, lets return to designing the covenant. Our 'great book' will be terram, which leaves us 150 build points plus 245 points in 'rescued' build points from magi taking a lab-in-a-box, for a total of 395 build points to spend. Any suggestions or preferences on how to spend them?

Not to belabor the point, but the advancement vote was 4 to 3 in favor of full freedom of seasonal experience with limitations on book availability.

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As for the covenant design, here are my thoughts.

Library: we want to spend at least 150 points on books, maybe 200 if we're supposed to be a school.

Lab Texts: I figure we're going to scribe a lot for ourselves in the first year or two. Do we really need that many? Possibly worth getting some. Say 20-50 points?

Vis: we'll want enough to make a good start. And since Thebes is rich in vis, we can justify a reasonable amount. Would 75 points for 15 vis be too much?

Enchanted Items: I can't see any reason we'd want to start out with any.

Specialists: we want bookmaking specialists (illuminator, book binder, etc.) as well as a good teacher. Say 50ish points?

These are just numbers I ginned up so that we'd have somewhere to start. Feel free to massacre them at will.

Given the level of income from the scriptorium, I would assume it has bookbinders and illuminators as well. though not ones versed in magic theory.

So, with the covenant having the Suffrage hook, would that mean that the school would cater to both boys and girls? :laughing:

It might be possible that the daughter of a local noble was being educated. It was extremely uncommon, but not unheard of.

The school will cater to both boys and girls, but we shouldn't expect a lot of girls... unless they perhaps come from inside the covenant...

I was wondering if perhaps it might not have the opposite effect. Slightly more girls, from noble families, and the boys mostly comimg from less well-off families -- because the school's acceptance of girls making it less prestigious.

From reading TSE, I got the impression that women in Thebes are generally better educated than in the rest of Europe. Can't pinpoint what gave me that impression, though...

I personally get the impression that the whole of Thebes is better educated than most of Europe...

Certainly the girls may be from higher social status families- but even so I wouldn't expect them to number anywhere near the boys. Then of course there may be girls (depending on the age group we instruct) who are being sent to school in hopes of finding a husband with a promising future.

I don't have a problem with fewer girls than boys. Just having them at the same school will raised a wide range of problems for the covenant. The more high-ranking might come with chapperones, although if they are that high-ranking they would probably be privately schooled.

There might even be a few young eneuchs, being taught their letters in order to gain a position in the clergy or for administrative duties. Although, with Morea controlled by Latin nobility, these would be few.

That would be very up in the air- aside from those who still dream of overthrowing the Latin Lords there is the added fact that the current administration in Achaea has been favorable to Greek churches to the point of offending the Vatican... so some people (especially if they have already been made eunuchs) may well be hoping that there will be such positions open in the future.

We have a good teacher as a character, so we don't need to buy the specialist. The first question I would wonder is what books do we want to spend points on- mundane books support the school, but arts are pretty important as well. We can pull scribes, boo binders, and illuminators from our businesses and train them in magic theory- it will cause a penalty to our wealth roll for that year for the scriptorium income but it might be better than spending starting build points on those specialists.

Wouldn't that also impact our income every time we use them to work on magical texts? Since they wouldn't be doing their job as income-earners...

Also, those workers may not even know that they are working for magi. In fact, that source of income does not even need to be located within the covenant walls. The covenant might own a scriptorium lcated in Patras proper. Just a suggestion, but in general keeping the sources of income seperate from covenant itself is less messy. 8)

I assume once we take them out and train them in magic theory they will be permanently assigned to the covenant and the scriptorium will find or train replacements. They don't need to be at the covenant proper but they will probably be closer than Patras, both to be closer to the resources we located our covenant to take advantage of and for the tranquility to write that comes from being outside of town. I don't think the exact distance from the covennt or Patras is something we need to figure out, just that they are between the two. The illuminators are likely to also be outside, the bookbinders may well be in Patras proper, though probably on the edge of town so the manuscripts do not need to be transported as far. Inkmaker is likely outside for access to natural ingredients, but probably closer than the scriptorium itself since some ingredients will come by ship instead of being gathered. The Percimanus is likely to be closer to the covenant, or at least further from town, since the main resource they require are sheepskins.

Let's start with general abilities. If we're a proper school, we'll probably want texts on the following as a bare minimum:

  • Artes Liberales
  • Philosophiae
  • Theology (maybe a bible?)

It might not be a bad idea to have:

  • Civil and Canon Law
  • Classical Greek (a language primer)
  • Music

From a magical standpoint, I'd like:

  • Code of Hermes
  • Faerie Lore
  • Magic Lore
  • Magic Theory
  • Order of Hermes Lore

Boy, that's a big wish list even before we get to arcane tomes. I'm sure it will have to be trimmed down. But at least it's a starting point.

I'll defer to others on what Arts we want covered.

I would like an L7 or L8 Finesse text.
While It would be nice to have an L20 Rego text, that is probably unreasonable.