Covenant Design Discussion

Alas, 395 points don't go very far.

Yes, I am not sure 41 points for an L8Q11 Finesse book is the best use for the covenant. But I thought I would speak up.

keep in mind that a text can only be used by one student at a time, and unlike a modern classroom copies wouldn't be available for all students. It is far more likely they would be taught more in the style of the old "farmhouse schools" where a single teacher provides rote instruction with a chalkboard or the equivalent, and the students will likely be writing on wax tablets. Only the more advanced students would be learning from books.
We are looking at a class size of about 25... and a source quality of 15 so he can teach up to ability 2 in a single season.

The impression I had re medieval schools is that the teacher would use a book to teach from while giving instruction to the class. I could be wrong, though.

Are we saying that we need to buy books for the school with our build points, or does the school hook come with basic texts for the school. (The description in Convenants isn't clear on that point.)

Also: I don't think I specified, so I'm happy for Liberius to start with a lab-in-a-box in order to give the covenant more build points. As long as the library includes somewhere for him to read, he's happy to wait for a lab. I might advance him by a few years pre-game in order to have him start with some magic items he's made for himself, though.

Okay, here's a wild stab in the dark at a covenant build. I intend this primarily as a starting point to show about what we can afford. Feel free to tear it apart, suggest changes, or whatever.

[size=150]Library[/size]
Art #1 Su: L16/Q15 (31 points)
Art #2 Su: L10/Q15 (25 points)
Art #3 Su: L6/Q21 (27 points)
Art #4 Su: L6/Q20 (26 points)
Art #5 Su: L6/Q15 (21 points)

Artes Liberales: L5/Q20 (35 points)
Philosophiae: L3/Q15 (24 points)
Theology: L3/Q15 (24 points)

Code of Hermes: L3/Q15 (24 points)
Magic Theory: L3/Q15 (24 points)

Art #6 Tr: Q10 (10 points)
Art #7 Tr: Q10 (10 points)

This is far and away the largest expenditure, covering over 2/3 of our starting points. I didn't put in the Finesse summa. But if we want to shave 35 points off from somewhere else, we can add it in. I'd love to have one.

As for non-Art books, I went with what I thought was the bare minimum. If we're a school, Artes Liberales, Philosophy, and Theology seemed critical. But maybe they're not. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. As for Arcane texts, I think every covenant should have a reference tome for the Code of Hermes, and we want Magic Theory to train our scribes.

[size=150]Lab Texts[/size]
None (0 points)

I think we're far better off spending the points on books and then scribing the lab texts ourselves.

[size=150]Vis Sources[/size]
12/year [type TBD] (60 points)

It's a start, and seems like a more than generous amount.

[size=150]Vis Stocks[/size]
10 (2 points)

I figured we might have scraped together a few vis before starting. Enough to handle one emergency, perhaps.

[size=150]Enchanted Items[/size]
None (0 points)

We have no reason to start with any.

[size=150]Specialists[/size]
1 book binder [Skill 6] (6 points)
2 illuminators [Skill 6] (12 points)
2 scribes [Skill 6] (12 points)
1 ink maker [Skill 6] (6 points)
1 teacher [Com +3, Teaching 6, Highest score 6] (15 points)

It seemed to me that we wanted more illuminators and scribes than book binders and ink makers, since they're slower. Also, if we are going to make a reputation as a school, I thought we'd want a second teacher. But again, we might be content with just the one, which could save 15 points.

In any case, that gives us the following.

Library: 282
Lab Texts: 0
Vis Sources: 60
Vis Stocks: 2
Enchanted Items: 0
Specialists: 51
TOTAL COST: 395

As I said, this is only meant to be a work in progress. Have at it!

Hmm, I reread silveroak's post about poaching people from our business. Maybe we can shave a lot of points off in specialists ...

I have heard that, but never from a credible source, though I can imagine it being a method of instruction where a book is more qualified than a teacher- essentially the entire class is reading the book by virtue of hearing it rather than one student reading it, essentially magnifying distribution of the book in the absence of mass publication. Certainly lecturing without books is a tradition that goes back to ancient Greece.
I have heard of a similar methodology for the copying of books- one person reading while others write what is read, and certainly could see someone copying the methodology to instruct in writing, or alternately it may have been a criticism of some teachers, as it is today, that they just read from the book...
looking a bit further I did find http://www.philosophybasics.com/movements_scholasticism.html which does appear to include what you have described, but specifically for a single type of instruction at the university level, and only to the topic of philosophae, primarily as taught by church institutions, and was to some degree about resurrecting "dead" ideas for consideration where no teacher would have had the familiarity with, for example, Plato or Aristotle, that was comparable to what was actually found in the books.

In short, no, books are not required for teaching, and if used they substitute for the teacher's skill rather than enhance it.

With Liberius joining the lab-in-a-box list our available build points rise to 544.

I stand corrected. :slight_smile:

That means nice things for the library.

I think the classes should probably be smaller than 25 -- that's a pretty modern pattern of having that many at the same time.

From TSE p.43:

IMHO, A "small group" is more along the line of 5-10 students at a time. Also, the divide between younger children being taught by a didaskalos and the older ones under the care of a grammatikoi would point to small groups rather than large ones.

Then you have the question of what subjects are being taught: Artes Liberales and Latin, certainly, with perhaps Classical Greek, Philosophiae, Theology, and Civil & Canon Law all possibilities. The schoolmaster may decide on a specific curriculum based on what teacher he has available. :smiley:

I picked 25 based on our schoolmaster's teaching ability, assuming we were maximizing (or planning based on maximizing) class size.

Except that the schoolmaster is not necessarily the only one teaching, or teaching all the time. He gives some classes, true, but more than that he is in charge of making sure that the school is run properly and takes care of the logistics aspects (hiring teachers, handling the noble/wealthy parents, etc.)

And since he has the Wealthy virtue, he only works the equivalent of 1 season/year. :laughing:

We are remote enough that he may well be the only instructor... I still see this as almost the old prairie one room schoolhouse type situations to start with. We can certainly build up the prestige of the school in play (maybe even turn it into another source of income)

I say we hire a specialist teacher so that Chistopheros can do other things with his seasons (like get learn more things to teach, adventure, etc.) .

Also, if we're that remote. would we be able to get 25 students?

We could have 3 tutors (including Chistophoros) and about a dozen students. The thing would basically pay for itself and be more a matter of prestige than income. No basic education, only advanced-level teaching.

Okay, here's a second stab in the dark at a covenant build with the new total point cost in mind. As I said before, I intend this primarily as a starting point to show about what we can afford. Feel free to tear it apart, suggest changes, or whatever.

[size=150]Library[/size]
Art #1 Su: L16/Q15 (31 points)
Art #2 Su: L12/Q18 (30 points)
Art #3 Su: L10/Q15 (25 points)
Art #4 Su: L8/Q21 (29 points)
Art #5 Su: L6/Q21 (27 points)
Art #6 Su: L6/Q21 (27 points)
Art #7 Su: L6/Q21 (27 points)
Art #8 Su: L6/Q21 (27 points)
Art #9 Su: L6/Q21 (27 points)

Artes Liberales: L3/Q15 (24 points)

Code of Hermes: L3/Q15 (24 points)
Finesse: L8/Q11 (35 points)
Magic Theory: L3/Q15 (24 points)

Art #10 Tr: Q11 (11 points)
Art #11 Tr: Q11 (11 points)
Art #12 Tr: Q11 (11 points)
Art #13 Tr: Q11 (11 points)

I upped this to 401 points, dropping almost all of the non-Art, non-arcane books. (I kept one because I can't imagine being a school without any relevant books. And I managed to squeeze in the Finesse summa, one of our prized books, no doubt.

Oh, and I think the Finesse book costs 35. It's cost is Quality + 3 x Level. That's 11 + 3*8 = 11 + 24 = 35.

[size=150]Lab Texts[/size]
None (0 points)

I think we're far better off spending the points on books and then scribing the lab texts ourselves.

[size=150]Vis Sources[/size]
15/year [type TBD] (75 points)

I upped this by a bit to reflect our greater starting points.

[size=150]Vis Stocks[/size]
10 (2 points)

I figured we might have scraped together a few vis before starting. Enough to handle one emergency, perhaps.

[size=150]Enchanted Items[/size]
None (0 points)

We have no reason to start with any.

[size=150]Specialists[/size]
1 book binder [Skill 6] (6 points)
2 illuminators [Skill 6] (12 points)
2 scribes [Skill 6] (12 points)
1 ink maker [Skill 6] (6 points)
2 teachers [Com +3, Teaching 6, Highest score 6] (30 points)

This is just a little over the cost of two decent summae. I think we should spring for this, but I understand that's just my opinion. As for the teachers, I like the idea of two teachers and a school master. One teacher teaches some younger kids, one teaches some older kids, and the schoolmaster teaches just a couple of the advanced students. Because it seems to me that if we get 25 students, they'll likely be of varying ages with varying capabilities.

That gives us the following.

Library: 401
Lab Texts: 0
Vis Sources: 75
Vis Stocks: 2
Enchanted Items: 0
Specialists: 66
TOTAL COST: 544

Again, this is only meant to be a work in progress. Have at it!

I'd say less books and more vis sources. That's the Verditius in me talking. :wink:

We can always trade vis for more books. In particular, tractatus not an inefficient use of build points. For example, 4 Q11 tractatus cost 44 bp and provide only 44 xp, while a L16Q15 summa cost much less (31 bp) and provides up to 136 xp (albeit a bit more slowly). I'd also get rid of the L6Q21 beginners' summae. They should be easy to trade for and offer the same value as tractatus.

I think the teacher for the school should not count as specialists for the covenant -- they already have a full-time job teaching the kids and thus not really available to teach others. The other specialists are fine to me.

Just my opinion. :smiley:

How much do people think is reasonable for vi sources? I'm all for more vis!

I'll dump the tracti and the beginner's summae and get some better stuff. More to come.

Good point.

Okay, here's a third stab in the dark at a covenant build with the new total point cost in mind. As I said before, I intend this primarily as a starting point to show about what we can afford. Feel free to tear it apart, suggest changes, or whatever.

[size=150]Library[/size]
Art #1 Su: L18/Q13 (31 points)
Art #2 Su: L16/Q15 (31 points)
Art #3 Su: L14/Q17 (31 points)
Art #4 Su: L12/Q19 (31 points)
Art #5 Su: L12/Q19 (31 points)
Art #6 Su: L10/Q21 (31 points)
Art #7 Su: L10/Q21 (31 points)
Art #8 Su: L10/Q21 (31 points)

Artes Liberales: L3/Q15 (24 points)

Code of Hermes: L3/Q15 (24 points)
Finesse: L8/Q11 (35 points)
Magic Theory: L3/Q15 (24 points)

Books only cost 355 now, but that's because I doubled our vis sources.

[size=150]Lab Texts[/size]
None (0 points)

I think we're far better off spending the points on books and then scribing the lab texts ourselves.

[size=150]Vis Sources[/size]
30/year [type TBD] (150 points)

I upped this by a bit to reflect our greater starting points.

[size=150]Vis Stocks[/size]
15 (3 points)

Because I had a stray point.

[size=150]Enchanted Items[/size]
None (0 points)

We have no reason to start with any.

[size=150]Specialists[/size]
1 book binder [Skill 6] (6 points)
2 illuminators [Skill 6] (12 points)
2 scribes [Skill 6] (12 points)
1 ink maker [Skill 6] (6 points)

This is just a bit more than the cost of a summa.

That gives us the following.

Library: 355
Lab Texts: 0
Vis Sources: 150
Vis Stocks: 3
Enchanted Items: 0
Specialists: 36
TOTAL COST: 544

Again, this is only meant to be a work in progress. Have at it!